Can't cope with your job? Sue someone!

[USS Monitor]

Ahoy NSG!

I'm sure we've all heard of plenty of stupid lawsuits, and this isn't really the stupidest I've ever heard of, but it's on a topic that is of interest to me, and it does kind of make me facepalm.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664643

Facebook now has 7,500 content moderators working around the globe 24 hours a day, and they regularly view images and videos showing depraved content, from child sexual abuse, to bestiality, beheadings, torture, rape and murder.

Now one of them is suing the social network for psychological trauma after watching thousands of hours of toxic and disturbing content.

Selena Scola claims that Facebook and Pro Unlimited, the firm to which the social network contracted the work, failed to keep her emotionally safe.

She claims that she now suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of the things she has seen online.

The case is likely to shine a light on the murky world of content moderation and raise questions about whether people should be doing this kind of work in the first place.

You signed up to be a moderator, and now you're suing the company because you... were exposed unmoderated content. OK. What did you think was going to happen?

There is admittedly some pretty nasty crap out there. There are a few things that have come up here on NS that I'd be happy to unsee, and I'm sure an image-heavy site like Facebook is worse. But it is a necessary part of the job. If it is too disturbing, the answer to that is to quit moderating. Not stick around until you've seen enough to give you PTSD and then sue.

Admittedly, people that have never been online moderators before might not think about what the job entails before getting into it. There's a lot of ugly crap that gets taken down before regular users see it, so people don't think about it, or don't think about what it will be like seeing it on a regular basis. If it's a paid job, some people are just there because they need a job. Paid or unpaid, you will get people that just like the chance to wield authority. But then once they actually get there and start doing the work, it's a lot more unpleasant than they expected.

But this can happen with many jobs. A lot of jobs suck. A lot of jobs aren't good for people's mental health. Being in a job you are ill-suited for is not healthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean your rights have been violated.

Facebook screens for resilience, with pre-training for all its moderators to explain what is expected in the job and a minimum of 80 hours with an instructor using a replica of the system, before reviewers are let loose in the real world.

It also employs four clinical psychologists, and all content reviewers have access to mental health resources.

So they've taken steps to try to minimize how much people are traumatized.

The point the article makes about how unpleasant mod work can be really rings true, but I'm just having trouble figuring out what they expect anyone to do about it. If you question whether people should be doing this type of work, then you've got to answer the question of what you think the alternative is. Leave everything unmoderated so those beheading videos are now being seen by every 8 year old that finds his dad's laptop? Automate it and have everyone getting pissed off when the AI fucks up. There is software designed to help with moderating online content, but the software isn't really good enough to use without human oversight.

So is this Monitor's blog or are we meant to discuss something? There are a few things that can be discussed here.

What do you think of the lawsuit? Do you think our society is too litigious and people should get better at just walking away from things that bother them instead of suing?

How should we approach the problems of jobs that are unpleasant and/or dangerous, but still need to be done? I can't stress enough that the point about the amount of disturbing crap mods are exposed to is completely legitimate, but it's also a necessary part of the job. There are many other jobs that come with their own occupational hazards, whether those are physical dangers or psychological stresses. So how do we deal with that? Companies should be taking steps to minimize hazards, and workman's comp should continue to exist, but if people know what the job entails, and they still take the job or they still stick around, that's on them.

Disclaimer: I haven't researched this in detail, so if there is some critical information about the lawsuit beyond what is explained in the article, I may not have the whole story. Always good to keep in mind. Cos there are some stuuuuuuupid lawsuits out there, but there are also lawsuits that look stupid at first glance, but make more sense once you get the whole story.

[Thanatttynia]

Frivolous lawsuits are generally a meme. In almost every case, there is some deeper reason or motivation behind them conveniently left out of media reports.

You should not be getting PTSD from your job, there should be proper safeguards against that. If Facebook aren't providing a safe working environment, they should be prosecuted - less because people who don't like their jobs deserve compensation than because the only thing these corporations care about is money and the government needs to ensure they don't get too good at acquiring it to the detriment of people's health.

[Senkaku]

Do you think our society is too litigious and people should get better at just walking away from things that bother them instead of suing?

Of course not. This is the American Way, everything appears to be in order, please carry on.

[Heloin]

I guess it's understandable that someone can take a job far to stressful for what they can really handle, she really should have quit earlier or used some of the mental health resorces available to her. Sueing should only come as a need if Facebook hadn't provided any resorces or was threatening to fire her because of issues resulting from job stress, though I don't know how good Facebook is at providing help to its employees.

[Madrinet]

Far be it from me to judge, but if you 'haven't got the whole story', maybe you should reserve your facepalms and outrage...

[USS Monitor]

Frivolous lawsuits are generally a meme. In almost every case, there is some deeper reason or motivation behind them conveniently left out of media reports.

You should not be getting PTSD from your job, there should be proper safeguards against that. If Facebook aren't providing a safe working environment, they should be prosecuted - less because people who don't like their jobs deserve compensation than because the only thing these corporations care about is money and the government needs to ensure they don't get too good at acquiring it to the detriment of people's health.

The thing is, it's probably possible to get PTSD from any job that you are ill-suited to, even if the job might be fine for someone else. For example, if you have anxiety about public speaking, and you have a job that involves a lot of it, that could be deeply traumatic -- but then there are other people that thrive in those jobs.

[Page]

I've been a moderator on message boards but I only dealt with bullshit, petty flaming, trolling, and various crap. Never had to see and delete child porn or murder videos though, and Facebook gets a hell of a lot more traffic, so I will reserve judgment since I have no idea what that's like.

I agree that they must have known what they were signing up for, but I also feel like I ought to consider that the company did not care for their mental well being, which can happen in any job. I have an acquaintance who worked in retail who was sexually harassed by several customers, and rather than standing with their employee, management berated her for not tolerating abusive customers. These moderators aren't dealing with people face to face, but they are dealing with some seriously fucked up shit. If they're working long shifts without a break, if they don't have a supportive employer, I can see it taking a toll on someone. Just because someone signs an agreement with an employer doesn't automatically exempt the employer from damages for any kind of harm to their employee. It is possible that Facebook did not meet their obligations to their employees, and the courts will decide if that is true.

As a side note, perhaps sociopaths should be hired for this sort of work. I have to think it would be a practical and useful measure to maybe screen the personalities of applicants and choose the ones most immune to being negatively affected.

Also, OP, I gotta ask, does your job really compare to theirs? I know there are lots of mods on NS and reports are dealt with quickly, but it's not light speed and we here on NS tend to see some of the stuff that gets people DEATed. What's the worst thing you ever dealt with here, some nasty porn being spammed? Not trying to be a jerk, just genuinely curious, as I've been a mod on a forum of similar size. I've had to delete some nasty but not illegal porn and ban a few creeps, but I've never seen anything on the level that these FB moderators see.

[USS Monitor]

I guess it's understandable that someone can take a job far to stressful for what they can really handle, she really should have quit earlier or used some of the mental health resorces available to her. Sueing should only come as a need if Facebook hadn't provided any resorces or was threatening to fire her because of issues resulting from job stress, though I don't know how good Facebook is at providing help to its employees.

Honestly, firing someone because they can't cope with the stress of their job is fine. Not every person is right for every job.

Getting hired and fired should both be easier than they are at most companies. You never know if someone will be good employee or not until after you hire them, so go ahead and give them a chance, but then fire them if it doesn't work.

[USS Monitor]

Far be it from me to judge, but if you 'haven't got the whole story', maybe you should reserve your facepalms and outrage...

If we all stayed silent until we got the whole story about every event we stumble across, the internet would be dead, and our lives would be more boring.

[Shrive]

I disagree. I understand your viewpoint fully, but I would say it comes down to two things.

1) I don't believe just four psychologists and "access to resources" is enough. I'm sure there are hundreds of mods, and all those resources are in America - they would cost money. I believe there should be more psychologists, on-the-job counselling and a completely stress-free workplace.

2) Regardless of how Ms. Scola got PTSD, the fact of the matter is that she has it. She got PTSD as a direct result of her work at Facebook, and although they aren't completely to blame for that, the fact of the matter is that she got it from them and they should fix it. Facebook has enough money to provide her with care, which they didn't do. I'm sure she's plagued with flashbacks and freezes and awful memories and panic attacks, which could be completely avoidable if they had more psychologists before the fact and took care of her after the fact.

I totally get what you're saying, but I think facebook is 100% to blame here.

[Heloin]

I guess it's understandable that someone can take a job far to stressful for what they can really handle, she really should have quit earlier or used some of the mental health resorces available to her. Sueing should only come as a need if Facebook hadn't provided any resorces or was threatening to fire her because of issues resulting from job stress, though I don't know how good Facebook is at providing help to its employees.

Honestly, firing someone because they can't cope with the stress of their job is fine. Not every person is right for every job.

Getting hired and fired should both be easier than they are at most companies. You never know if someone will be good employee or not until after you hire them, so go ahead and give them a chance, but then fire them if it doesn't work.

That's fair enough. Though I meant firing more in the sense of say some employee felt they needed some extra mental health care help from there job and instead of helping with it they fired that employee. Not that this is this scenario but that would be a time in which sueing the company makes some sense.

[Madrinet]

Far be it from me to judge, but if you 'haven't got the whole story', maybe you should reserve your facepalms and outrage...

If we all stayed silent until we got the whole story about every event we stumble across, the internet would be dead, and our lives would be more boring.

We'd all probably have a lower collective blood pressure too

[Heloin]

If we all stayed silent until we got the whole story about every event we stumble across, the internet would be dead, and our lives would be more boring.

We'd all probably have a lower collective blood pressure too

I have low bood pressure though. I need internet arguments to get through the day.

[Thanatttynia]

Frivolous lawsuits are generally a meme. In almost every case, there is some deeper reason or motivation behind them conveniently left out of media reports.

You should not be getting PTSD from your job, there should be proper safeguards against that. If Facebook aren't providing a safe working environment, they should be prosecuted - less because people who don't like their jobs deserve compensation than because the only thing these corporations care about is money and the government needs to ensure they don't get too good at acquiring it to the detriment of people's health.

The thing is, it's probably possible to get PTSD from any job that you are ill-suited to, even if the job might be fine for someone else. For example, if you have anxiety about public speaking, and you have a job that involves a lot of it, that could be deeply traumatic -- but then there are other people that thrive in those jobs.

I think we can make a common-sense distinction between jobs which a few people would find traumatising and jobs which most people would find traumatising. This would fall in the latter category and I don't, therefore, think training and the mere presence of psychologists is really adequate safeguarding for employees in this type of dangerous job, for the same reason that more health and safety precautions are needed and should be required at a mining site than in an office building, though both are potentially dangerous.

[Telconi]

I disagree. I understand your viewpoint fully, but I would say it comes down to two things.

1) I don't believe just four psychologists and "access to resources" is enough. I'm sure there are hundreds of mods, and all those resources are in America - they would cost money. I believe there should be more psychologists, on-the-job counselling and a completely stress-free workplace.

2) Regardless of how Ms. Scola got PTSD, the fact of the matter is that she has it. She got PTSD as a direct result of her work at Facebook, and although they aren't completely to blame for that, the fact of the matter is that she got it from them and they should fix it. Facebook has enough money to provide her with care, which they didn't do. I'm sure she's plagued with flashbacks and freezes and awful memories and panic attacks, which could be completely avoidable if they had more psychologists before the fact and took care of her after the fact.

I totally get what you're saying, but I think facebook is 100% to blame here.

"Completely stress free workplace" now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

[Des-Bal]

Were not too litigious we just dont understand how lawsuits work. So when someone initiates a lawsuit they do it by filing a complaint, a document that spells out their side of the story. Exactly what they say happened, exactly why they think it was wrong, and exactly why it makea sense for them to receive damages. When talking about a lawsuit news articles misunderstand or misrepresent which facts are important leading to people VASTLY misunderstanding why lawsuits occur and why they have the results they do. There are really EXCEEDINGLY few spurious lawsuits because they're expensive and and have a serious tendency to result in participating attorneys being disbarred. Here is the Complaint.

The complaint alleges that Facebook creared and helped create many of the guidelines for content moderation and then did not follow them.

This is a big deal if you establish and promote the importance of safety rules and then disregard your own advice you have announced to the world that you know better.

[Ifreann]

Facebook employs four clinical psychologists...and seven thousand five hundred moderators.

Em.

Maybe hire a few more psychologists? Like, a thousand more, for starters.

Anyway, the notion that if someone has a problem with their working environment then they should just quit really should be a non-starter. When people were getting killed in unsafe factories, should the answer have been to tell the workers to quit if they don't like it? Because it would seem to me that the answer of making factory owners run safer factories has worked out rather well.

[Petrolheadia]

Facebook employs four clinical psychologists...and seven thousand five hundred moderators.

Em.

Maybe hire a few more psychologists? Like, a thousand more, for starters.

Anyway, the notion that if someone has a problem with their working environment then they should just quit really should be a non-starter. When people were getting killed in unsafe factories, should the answer have been to tell the workers to quit if they don't like it? Because it would seem to me that the answer of making factory owners run safer factories has worked out rather well.

A mass job quitting would be quite a hit to the owners' coffers.

[USS Monitor]

I've been a moderator on message boards but I only dealt with bullshit, petty flaming, trolling, and various crap. Never had to see and delete child porn or murder videos though, and Facebook gets a hell of a lot more traffic, so I will reserve judgment since I have no idea what that's like.

I agree that they must have known what they were signing up for, but I also feel like I ought to consider that the company did not care for their mental well being, which can happen in any job. I have an acquaintance who worked in retail who was sexually harassed by several customers, and rather than standing with their employee, management berated her for not tolerating abusive customers. These moderators aren't dealing with people face to face, but they are dealing with some seriously fucked up shit. If they're working long shifts without a break, if they don't have a supportive employer, I can see it taking a toll on someone. Just because someone signs an agreement with an employer doesn't automatically exempt the employer from damages for any kind of harm to their employee. It is possible that Facebook did not meet their obligations to their employees, and the courts will decide if that is true.

As a side note, perhaps sociopaths should be hired for this sort of work. I have to think it would be a practical and useful measure to maybe screen the personalities of applicants and choose the ones most immune to being negatively affected.

Sociopaths might be a bad idea because of the way they often like to mess with people. Not the best to trust them with power.

But there are definitely some personalities that are more suited to it than others. If we're discussing what disorders we want mods to have, I vote for autism because of the way autistic people can focus on repetitive tasks and tend to like having clear rules.

Also, OP, I gotta ask, does your job really compare to theirs? I know there are lots of mods on NS and reports are dealt with quickly, but it's not light speed and we here on NS tend to see some of the stuff that gets people DEATed. What's the worst thing you ever dealt with here, some nasty porn being spammed? Not trying to be a jerk, just genuinely curious, as I've been a mod on a forum of similar size. I've had to delete some nasty but not illegal porn and ban a few creeps, but I've never seen anything on the level that these FB moderators see.

I would imagine FB is worse because it has more visual stuff and is more well-known, where NS is smaller and mostly text-based. Most of the stuff we get is just people being asshats. Outright illegal stuff like a guy trying to share child porn does come up occasionally, but less often.

Honestly, the most stressful thing I ever had to deal with as a mod was the last time CWA flamed someone, but that's because I love CWA and it's always more stressful to deal with trouble that involves people you care about, and threatens to hurt your relationship with them, rather than strangers. If some random troll had posted the same flame, it would have been no big thing.

The guy trying to share child porn was a big "Eeeeeewwwww!!! Kill it with fire!!! Get it off the site!!!" and forward the information to people that can hopefully do something about it, but it wasn't something that hit close to home in a personal way.

[USS Monitor]

I disagree. I understand your viewpoint fully, but I would say it comes down to two things.

1) I don't believe just four psychologists and "access to resources" is enough. I'm sure there are hundreds of mods, and all those resources are in America - they would cost money. I believe there should be more psychologists, on-the-job counselling and a completely stress-free workplace.

2) Regardless of how Ms. Scola got PTSD, the fact of the matter is that she has it. She got PTSD as a direct result of her work at Facebook, and although they aren't completely to blame for that, the fact of the matter is that she got it from them and they should fix it. Facebook has enough money to provide her with care, which they didn't do. I'm sure she's plagued with flashbacks and freezes and awful memories and panic attacks, which could be completely avoidable if they had more psychologists before the fact and took care of her after the fact.

I totally get what you're saying, but I think facebook is 100% to blame here.

Where does anyone have a completely stress-free workplace? I don't think that's possible with mod work, or many other jobs.

[USS Monitor]

We'd all probably have a lower collective blood pressure too

I have low bood pressure though. I need internet arguments to get through the day.

I have low blood pressure too. Not every day that I run into someone else that has it. It sometimes confuses people that are only used to hearing about high blood pressure as an issue.

[USS Monitor]

The thing is, it's probably possible to get PTSD from any job that you are ill-suited to, even if the job might be fine for someone else. For example, if you have anxiety about public speaking, and you have a job that involves a lot of it, that could be deeply traumatic -- but then there are other people that thrive in those jobs.

I think we can make a common-sense distinction between jobs which a few people would find traumatising and jobs which most people would find traumatising. This would fall in the latter category and I don't, therefore, think training and the mere presence of psychologists is really adequate safeguarding for employees in this type of dangerous job, for the same reason that more health and safety precautions are needed and should be required at a mining site than in an office building, though both are potentially dangerous.

What else do you propose they have?

[Heloin]

I have low bood pressure though. I need internet arguments to get through the day.

I have low blood pressure too. Not every day that I run into someone else that has it. It sometimes confuses people that are only used to hearing about high blood pressure as an issue.

Always "fun" to find other people who also have it. I once asked my doctor if I should eat tons of fatty foods to raise my blood pressure back to normal. She told me that isn't how it works.

[USS Monitor]

I have low blood pressure too. Not every day that I run into someone else that has it. It sometimes confuses people that are only used to hearing about high blood pressure as an issue.

Always "fun" to find other people who also have it. I once asked my doctor if I should eat tons of fatty foods to raise my blood pressure back to normal. She told me that isn't how it works.

Too bad, cos I love fatty foods. And salty foods. Yum!

[Scomagia]

Far be it from me to judge, but if you 'haven't got the whole story', maybe you should reserve your facepalms and outrage...

Bingo. Facebook may claim that it provides mental health resources for these employees but we don't know anything about the quality or practical accessibility of those resources. Presumably all of these questions and more will be answered in court.