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Is Nationalism and the Nation State a Bad Thing?

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Rasorate
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Is Nationalism and the Nation State a Bad Thing?

Postby Rasorate » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:48 am

Hi, sometimes I scan through the BBC website to see what is happening in the "world" and I saw two news reports that generated the idea for the above question. Now I only read the headlines and scanned the first few paragraphs of the news reports so I may have misjudged the articles but there was a few things that grabbed my attention that others might be interested in.

The news reports concerns Hungary - and the EU is going to debate disciplining Hungary because of Hungary's "decision to prioritise national interest above that of the EU."

That is, it seems that Hungary might be disciplined because "it is prioritising national interests over EU interests".

Overall it seems that the main issue is how important do you value nationalism and the nation state over pluralism and being part of something bigger.

BBC Headline 1: "Nationalism in heart of Europe needles EU"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43157234
BBC Headline 2: "European Parliament to debate disciplining Hungary"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45477025

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Dahon
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Postby Dahon » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 am

I had a thread on the Hungarian question a month ago or so. Won't link to it.

So, as for nationalism itself: while I don't have a problem with it if it's just pride in what your ancestors (or if you're an immigrant, what your host people's ancestors) did to build the place up, it can be as productive of as much evil as good, simply by fostering a consciousness of in- and outgroups.

That fact should be recognized.
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Loben
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Postby Loben » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:15 am

No

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:19 am

Nationalism and the concept of the nation state can be both good and bad depending on how it is presented and adopted.

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Second Empire of America
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Postby Second Empire of America » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:40 am

I have said many times that I despise nationalism and nation-states. Nationalism is a disease that turn governments and cultures against one another, when they could achieve so much more by working together. Even fostering a national consciousness is dangerous, for it will inevitably lead to an opportunity for more dangerous forms of nationalism to take hold.

I consider the EU and international organizations like it to be the future of society, and it has every right to discipline Hungary. Ideally, it would send troops in to force Hungary into compliance. Ufortunately, the EU doesn't have a federal army yet.
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San Carlos Islands
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Postby San Carlos Islands » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:44 am

If we didn't have nationalism and the nation-state wasn't created, we wouldn't be here. How would you expect humanity to go from being some hunters to founding the basis of civilization like Babylon?
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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:56 am

tribalism will never go away. it is a defining aspect of both humanity and the animal kingdom.
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Unstoppable Empire of Doom
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:58 am

San Carlos Islands wrote:If we didn't have nationalism and the nation-state wasn't created, we wouldn't be here. How would you expect humanity to go from being some hunters to founding the basis of civilization like Babylon?

You are right, but we are here now not there. While nationalism was vital in the past it has grown increasingly defunct with the Advent of nuclear weapons and now poses a serious threat to humanities survival in the long term.
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The Great-German Empire
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Postby The Great-German Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:02 am

Nationalism is not a bad thing and neither is that nation-state. The problem that has lead to this perception is the ease with which a healthy national consciousness can be twisted by that nation's leadership.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:18 am

San Carlos Islands wrote:If we didn't have nationalism and the nation-state wasn't created, we wouldn't be here. How would you expect humanity to go from being some hunters to founding the basis of civilization like Babylon?

Eh not quite, nationalism and the idea of nations in general is a very recent human concept. The idea of a nation and the nation state only coming around in europe in the late 1500's. Examples of early proto-nation states like Rome or Ancient China are more incidentally similar to how we like to arange our countries nowadays then being diliberate nation states, if that makes any sense. Is it bad no. Currently though who really nows what the future of nationalism will truely look like, if anything.
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Postby Greater Germany » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:20 am

Not necessarily.
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:30 am

Second Empire of America wrote:I have said many times that I despise nationalism and nation-states. Nationalism is a disease that turn governments and cultures against one another, when they could achieve so much more by working together. Even fostering a national consciousness is dangerous, for it will inevitably lead to an opportunity for more dangerous forms of nationalism to take hold.

I consider the EU and international organizations like it to be the future of society, and it has every right to discipline Hungary. Ideally, it would send troops in to force Hungary into compliance. Ufortunately, the EU doesn't have a federal army yet.


The EU isn’t an international organisation, it’s just a bigger version of nationalism. And that’s one of the reasons why sane countries don’t want an EU army, forcing its will on the rest of Europe by force has very bad historical precedents.
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Postby Dark Socialism » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 am

Second Empire of America wrote:I have said many times that I despise nationalism and nation-states. Nationalism is a disease that turn governments and cultures against one another, when they could achieve so much more by working together. Even fostering a national consciousness is dangerous, for it will inevitably lead to an opportunity for more dangerous forms of nationalism to take hold.

I consider the EU and international organizations like it to be the future of society, and it has every right to discipline Hungary. Ideally, it would send troops in to force Hungary into compliance. Ufortunately, the EU doesn't have a federal army yet.

Stop expressing supranationalism by supporting the EU you frickin nazi!
Last edited by Dark Socialism on Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Risottia » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:40 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Nationalism and the concept of the nation state can be both good and bad depending on how it is presented and adopted.

Nationalism and nation-states in Europe are a stupid idea nowadays, because the most populated European countries have the population of a small Chinese province, while the whole European continent has one-third of the population of China. European countries need to unite now to face the global competition.
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Pinch Me
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Postby Pinch Me » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm

The problem I see with the popular political spectrums is that they don't seem to consider the polar opposites of believing in a stateless society where each person has the rights of a state and a stateless society where the whole of humanity has the rights of one single big state.

isolationism vs. internationalism is the biggest political conflict of our times based on the challenges of human perspectives and the search for enlightenment. Libertarianism vs. neo-liberalism figures somewhere in that spectrum.

Nationalism (in it's form as a negative influence) is somewhere inbetween. The EU wants to create a federal superstate in an attempt to challenge the USA and China for control in the ultimate world order many invision for the future. Perhaps it is inevitable.

The problem is that support for the EU is itself faced with its own nationalism because it still has to have borders, which are even harder to control than in a smaller state. It's all so very complex and confusing.

Does a nationstate have more legitimacy the greater the population?
Do we need to identify more divisions of state other than confederal, federal and unity? Can these be defined definitively?
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Postby Kaggeceria » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm

No.

The nation-state has proven itself to be the best formula humanity has for peacefully coexisting. Ideas of a one world government have not proven themselves in the slightest to be workable alternatives.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve one's country.
Last edited by Kaggeceria on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:45 pm

The nation-state is vital to the continued prosperity and success of humanity.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:54 pm

It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.
At the end of the day we are the same people, and there is no need let the difference if ethnicity and culture interfere with our desire to help others. If we can stop for a moment thinking of the country next door or on the other side of the world as the other tribe, and is all as one single tribe, we’d ultimately get more done
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Kaggeceria wrote:No.

The nation-state has proven itself to be the best formula humanity has for peacefully coexisting. Ideas of a one world government have not proven themselves in the slightest to be workable alternatives.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve one's country.

You say that the nation state allows people to coexist peacefully when some of our bloodiest wars were between nation states
The only thing keeping ww3 from flaring up is MAD, not some vaque concept of national sovereignty that no nation truly follows
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Kyrinasaj
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Postby Kyrinasaj » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm

It's generally positive
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Postby Kaggeceria » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:00 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Kaggeceria wrote:No.

The nation-state has proven itself to be the best formula humanity has for peacefully coexisting. Ideas of a one world government have not proven themselves in the slightest to be workable alternatives.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve one's country.

You say that the nation state allows people to coexist peacefully when some of our bloodiest wars were between nation states
The only thing keeping ww3 from flaring up is MAD, not some vaque concept of national sovereignty that no nation truly follows

Why do you think Europe has the map it does now? Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work. Now, for the most part, the Balkans are relatively peaceful. And none of them have nukes.

Yes, wars often do flare up. But for the most part, having people exercise sovereignty over themselves has allowed for peace.
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Kaggeceria
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Postby Kaggeceria » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:01 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.
At the end of the day we are the same people, and there is no need let the difference if ethnicity and culture interfere with our desire to help others. If we can stop for a moment thinking of the country next door or on the other side of the world as the other tribe, and is all as one single tribe, we’d ultimately get more done

Some countries are better than others. That's just the way it is. I wouldn't say Somalia is equal to Norway.
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:03 pm

I'm against states, nation-states, and NationStates, in no particular order.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:07 pm

Kaggeceria wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:You say that the nation state allows people to coexist peacefully when some of our bloodiest wars were between nation states
The only thing keeping ww3 from flaring up is MAD, not some vaque concept of national sovereignty that no nation truly follows

Why do you think Europe has the map it does now? Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work. Now, for the most part, the Balkans are relatively peaceful. And none of them have nukes.

Yes, wars often do flare up. But for the most part, having people exercise sovereignty over themselves has allowed for peace.

Those wars were still flaring up in the Balkans until the 90s, and we continue to see them in Africa and the Middle East. It doesn’t look that peaceful to me
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:09 pm

Kaggeceria wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.
At the end of the day we are the same people, and there is no need let the difference if ethnicity and culture interfere with our desire to help others. If we can stop for a moment thinking of the country next door or on the other side of the world as the other tribe, and is all as one single tribe, we’d ultimately get more done

Some countries are better than others. That's just the way it is. I wouldn't say Somalia is equal to Norway.

My problem is that leads to a conclusion that the better off nations should then not help the worst off nations, and then we use their continued suffering as a justification for why those nations are awful
And that’s not just the fault of rich nations. The fear of colonialism is extreme and often leads to people refusing aid
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