That's the same thing as saying that Chinese government funds terrorism in the African continent.
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by The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:48 pm
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:59 pm
Ganjabong wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Never said otherwise. Only saying there's no excuse.
If you could go back in time and argue with Patton that he should put the American soldiers involved on trial, what would you say? Patton had superiors to appeal to. What would you say to them?
That is what I mean by "so?"
Hindsight moral preening is cheap.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:27 pm
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:20 pm
In the spirit of trying to discover the full gauge of your "Nazis are loveable humans too" ethos, who are the ones "no better than dogs" in this scenario, the outraged US soldiers or the enraged liberated prisoners? Who is your ethos ready to dehumanize as dogs? Hmmm?
by Salus Maior » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:27 pm
Ganjabong wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:You say that like empathy is a mortal sin.
No. I'm just noticing where your priorities lie. Some reports from the incident tell of soldiers watching prisoners beat and stomp SS personnel to death, without intervention. Some soldiers even gave Dachau prisoners their sidearms to execute captured Nazi SS themselves.
So, we have reports that:
- American soldiers lined up and executed Nazi SS personnel on the spot or offsite nearby
- American soldiers turned Nazi SS personnel over to Dachau camp prisoners to be beaten and executed, or otherwise did not intervene to save Nazi SS members the prisoners captured themselves
- American soldiers loaned their sidearms to Dachau prisoners to assist in the execution of Nazi SS personnel
We can speculate that some or some combination of these events happened. We know US soldiers and Dachau prisoners both participated in the executions of those German and Hungarian Nazi SS personnel at the camp.
In the spirit of trying to discover the full gauge of your "Nazis are loveable humans too" ethos, who are the ones "no better than dogs" in this scenario, the outraged US soldiers or the enraged liberated prisoners? Who is your ethos ready to dehumanize as dogs? Hmmm?
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:01 pm
Ganjabong wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:If you're trying to paint me as a Nazi apologist then you've already failed.
Yes.
Unlike some people who give into the "War is hell" excuse to justify every atrocity in history, I believe fellow soldiers from all ages are capable of moral restraint, so I hold them to a higher standard than any other armed force.
Does that include a condemnation of the US soldiers who assisted or otherwise did not intevene in the Dachau camp prisoners beating and shooting Nazi SS personnel to death?
For example, the account that US soldiers watched Dachau camp prisoners stomp a Nazi SS guard's head into paste. Or the Dachau camp prisoners that beat Nazi SS personnel to death with a shovel. Should those Dachau prisoners have been arrested and tried for murdering Nazis?
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:16 pm
Ganjabong wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Regardless of "empathy" or whatever, murdering POW's is a war crime and what the Americans did in this scenario was an unacceptable break in discipline and frankly hysteric, regardless of whether the POW's deserved it.
It was not their position to judge, jury, and executioner for the SS. That position belongs to a judge, jury, and executioner.
And furthermore, what if those SS would have been useful in finding other prisoners, other camps? Uncovering things the Nazis hid away and other war crimes that could have been brought to light? But nah, the soldiers were mad so they had to take it into their own hands.
War is hell.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:16 pm
by Salus Maior » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:27 pm
Ganjabong wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Regardless of "empathy" or whatever, murdering POW's is a war crime and what the Americans did in this scenario was an unacceptable break in discipline and frankly hysteric, regardless of whether the POW's deserved it.
It was not their position to judge, jury, and executioner for the SS. That position belongs to a judge, jury, and executioner.
And furthermore, what if those SS would have been useful in finding other prisoners, other camps? Uncovering things the Nazis hid away and other war crimes that could have been brought to light? But nah, the soldiers were mad so they had to take it into their own hands.
War is hell.
by Salus Maior » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:29 pm
Ganjabong wrote:
None of those are the equivalent of executing war criminals on the spot, or allowing their victims to do so.
You seem oddly upset that nobody banged a gavel first.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 pm
Ganjabong wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Holy shit, do you have anything meaningful at all to say?
Nazis kill millions of Soviet civilians?
"War is hell."
Japanese eat the bodies of American soldiers when their food runs out during a siege?
"War is hell."
Saddam gases the Kurds?
"War is hell."
Jihadis terrorize the towns under their control, doing things like det cord decapitations?
"War is hell."
Terrorists strap explosives to children and send them a US checkpoint's way?
"War is hell."
See? It's all okay because "war is hell."
None of those are the equivalent of executing war criminals on the spot, or allowing their victims to do so.
You seem oddly upset that nobody banged a gavel first.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:42 pm
by Salus Maior » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:50 pm
Ganjabong wrote:
In war, one side loses. I'm sorry you can't give a gold star to all participants that showed up.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:53 pm
Ganjabong wrote:In war, one side loses. I'm sorry you can't give a gold star to all participants that showed up.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:57 pm
Ganjabong wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Yeah they are. They're all war crimes, and all justified under your oft-repeated platitude that you don't understand the meaning of.
That's how international law works. Due process, not wartime vigilantism.
There is a report that one of the SS officers protested that he was supposed to be tried first before he was shot to death. He was given the courtesy of being told he was guilty before being shot in the face. Now, that seems rather cynical, but the guy was caught red-handed participating in the operation of a death camp. Certainly not the most ideal of circumstances for all parties involved, but the guy was really spared some time of listening to prosecutors blather on about how guilty he already knew he was before he was inevitably executed.
I get it though. You need your justice to have an opening ceremony. So that you're better than a dog, right?
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:07 pm
Oh wait, you can't even find consistent body count figures.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:09 pm
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 pm
Ja, indeed. Thanks for playing.
by Prydania » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:24 pm
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:If you're trying to paint me as a Nazi apologist then you've already failed.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:28 pm
Prydania wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:If you're trying to paint me as a Nazi apologist then you've already failed.
He seems to have succeeded tbh. You seem to care more about SS soldiers then the people they brutalized and killed as part of a genocidal national policy they willingly bought into.
by Prydania » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:30 pm
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Prydania wrote:He seems to have succeeded tbh. You seem to care more about SS soldiers then the people they brutalized and killed as part of a genocidal national policy they willingly bought into.
I don't care about the SS soldiers (I'm 100% confident they would've been found guilty if they held a trial), I care about upholding standards for US soldiers who are supposed to be beholden to international laws of war.
You too are trying to paint me as a Nazi apologist, and you too are failing.
by Farnhamia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:31 pm
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Torrocca wrote:
Almost like there's an inherent difference to Judaism and Nazism or something, I'd imagine.
And there's an inherent difference between being a Jew and being a human.
Look inside yourself Torrocca, you're a tankie with more in common with the Nazis than with freedom lovers.
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