Citizenship based taxation

[San Marlindo]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

[Shrillland]

I prefer residency-based rather than citizenship myself. Most of the time, people who are here as residents either try to or at least want to become citizens(my problems with the current immigration system are for a different thread). The fact that only we and Eritrea tax based on citizenship should be enough to say that our system may have some problems to it.

[The South Falls]

Tax the residents. That way republicans stop complaining they're not contributing.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

I should mention that immigrants to the US (legal ones, at least) do in fact pay taxes, even if they aren't citizens. You are assigned ITINs (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) and you use that to pay your taxes.

Edit: I also further just learned that illegal immigrants also often pay taxes through ITINs because the IRS is prohibited by federal law from sharing such information with other government agencies like the DHS.

[Shrillland]

I should mention that immigrants to the US (legal ones, at least) do in fact pay taxes, even if they aren't citizens. You are assigned ITINs (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) and you use that to pay your taxes.

True. I suppose that then it reduces the issue to expats, and they don't really count in the eyes of most Americans because they left the country.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I don't understand the question.

Do people with dual citizenship (US citizenship and foreign citizenship) pay double tax, or people with US citizenship and just living abroad?

[Shrillland]

I don't understand the question.

Do people with dual citizenship (US citizenship and foreign citizenship) pay double tax, or people with US citizenship and just living abroad?

US citizens have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not they live in the country or are citizens of another country. Even if you've moved to somewhere in, say, Europe, and earned all of your money there, you still have to declare and pay US income taxes on it if you're a citizen. The forms required for such an endeavour can be a real pain in the neck if you don't know what you need and problematic even when you do know. This is why so many expats feel compelled to give up their American citizenship if they become citizens of another country.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I don't understand the question.

Do people with dual citizenship (US citizenship and foreign citizenship) pay double tax, or people with US citizenship and just living abroad?

US citizens have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not they live in the country or are citizens of another country. Even if you've moved to somewhere in, say, Europe, and earned all of your money there, you still have to declare and pay US income taxes on it if you're a citizen. The forms required for such an endeavour can be a real pain in the neck if you don't know what you need and problematic even when you do know. This is why so many expats feel compelled to give up their American citizenship if they become citizens of another country.

I see, thx.

Well, if you're still legally a citizen of the United States, then you should pay US taxes along with the host country's taxes. Just make it easier tho.

[Farnhamia]

I don't understand the question.

Do people with dual citizenship (US citizenship and foreign citizenship) pay double tax, or people with US citizenship and just living abroad?

US citizens have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not they live in the country or are citizens of another country. Even if you've moved to somewhere in, say, Europe, and earned all of your money there, you still have to declare and pay US income taxes on it if you're a citizen. The forms required for such an endeavour can be a real pain in the neck if you don't know what you need and problematic even when you do know. This is why so many expats feel compelled to give up their American citizenship if they become citizens of another country.

And the amount you can exempt from US income tax is over $100K. $102,100, in fact. You can look this up. That's for 2017 taxes, of course.

[The East Marches II]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

If our gunboats still protected American citizens and business interests abroad, they'd have a point. As it stands, it does really nothing but add hassle and keep Americans from being employed abroad. They can just give up their citizenship and call it a day. I agree with you, its absolute cancer.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

If our gunboats still protected American citizens and business interests abroad, they'd have a point. As it stands, it does really nothing but add hassle and keep Americans from being employed abroad. They can just give up their citizenship and call it a day. I agree with you, its absolute cancer.

Even then it's expensive as fuck to renounce US citizenship (iirc, like $1,300) and still doesn't necessarily free them from tax obligations.

[Senkaku]

Tax American citizens, American residents, and foreign visitors to the US- just send a drone or someone from the IRS home with them to keep collecting after they leave

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

It sounds reasonable however the US also protects it's citizens living abroad. So when someone like you is kidnapped by isis the Navy seals, backed by the US 6th fleet, try to get you out. Or when you are arrested by a foreign government our embassy will file protests and provide legal aid. If you don't want to pay taxes than submit your passport to the nearest US embassy.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

It sounds reasonable however the US also protects it's citizens living abroad. So when someone like you is kidnapped by isis the Navy seals, backed by the US 6th fleet, try to get you out. Or when you are arrested by a foreign government our embassy will file protests and provide legal aid. If you don't want to pay taxes than submit your passport to the nearest US embassy.

Not how that works. You have to appear in person at an embassy and sign an oath of renunciation. In addition, there's the process fee of $2,350 and the fact that you have to prove that you have been completely tax compliant for 5 previous years.

[San Marlindo]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

It sounds reasonable however the US also protects it's citizens living abroad. So when someone like you is kidnapped by isis the Navy seals, backed by the US 6th fleet, try to get you out. Or when you are arrested by a foreign government our embassy will file protests and provide legal aid.

Whenever this happens it makes the news because it rarely does.

Heck, British consular and embassy staff have treated me way better than American ones. The attitude is extremely legalistic and basically "fuck you, if something happens you're on your own." US embassies don't exist to serve the interests of average US citizens, and those of us who spend decades abroad know this very well.

When Congo-Brazzaville experienced its civil war in '97, the French expats received an evacuation plan from their embassy. Ditto for the Brits and the Germans. The US embassy staff told the US expats there wasn't going to be a war. Then their phones were unplugged when the fighting happened. The Americans, mostly Peace Corps volunteers, got stranded in Brazzaville with tanks rolling down the street while the US ambassador saved his own ass. The French finally came and flew them out.

Same thing happened when Saddam invaded Kuwait. The US embassy denied there was going to be an invasion until it happened, then was mysteriously unreachable. There was no evacuation plan for US nationals, only diplomatic staff, and American contract workers had to drive out of the country on their own. I met some of these guys in Bahrain, they had some hairy stories.

If you don't want to pay taxes than submit your passport to the nearest US embassy.

I do want to pay taxes when I live overseas, but to the country providing me with income. Not the US.

[The Blaatschapen]

I agree. Tax residents, not citizens.

After all, why you should you pay for government services that are not provided in your jurisdiction.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I mean I don’t know economics, maybe there’s a good reason here, but I feel like residential based makes more sense and would make more money

[Trumptonium1]

The question and the OP is misleading as you are

A) Implying that all immigrants do not pay taxes. They do. You don't need citizenship to pay tax, you pay tax as soon as you find work regardless of your citizenship while you reside in the US.
B) Implying that all emigrants pay taxes. The overwhelming majority do not, not even junior investment bankers in London or Hong Kong. The threshold to pay US tax is above $110-$140k depending on circumstances.

Your OP should have asked "do you think well-off expats should pay American taxes or not"

[Trumptonium1]

I agree. Tax residents, not citizens.

After all, why you should you pay for government services that are not provided in your jurisdiction.

You are provided diplomatic protection for free, which can save your life and/or protect you from imprisonment.

I would say it's worth it.

[Conserative Morality]

Tax all residents of all nations. America uber alles.

[Afrique Occidentale]

Tax all citizen and residents. You're still *technically enjoying rights and benefit of being a citizen even if you're across the world. And its not like there's only one kind of taxation, of course you will naturally exempt from one tax law and get taxed by another based on your residence.

[Ethel mermania]

If I remember right taxes paid in the host country are credited against the ex-pats US tax bill. So if you want the benefits of that citizenship, and you can afford too, as you can pay taxes. You can pay US taxes as well.

[The East Marches II]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

It sounds reasonable however the US also protects it's citizens living abroad. So when someone like you is kidnapped by isis the Navy seals, backed by the US 6th fleet, try to get you out. Or when you are arrested by a foreign government our embassy will file protests and provide legal aid. If you don't want to pay taxes than submit your passport to the nearest US embassy.

I'd very much like it if our people were that useful. Unfortunately it rarely works out as that Jean Claude Van Damme movie makes it out.

[Rangor]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

Taxation based on strict representation within the proper jurisdiction. Repeal all taxes that do not conform to this principle. The arrogance of the IRS to usurp our traditional constitutional principles is treachery. I do not know when we stopped following those principles but the sooner the US returns to them the better off the citizens will be.

[Ifreann]

The US currently has citizen based taxation, which means that US citizens are liable for income tax wherever they go. In some cases this means they pay double the taxes (one set to the US and one set to the country where their income was earned). By comparison, the EU and most developed nations do not tax the incomes of their citizens living abroad.

As a current US citizen who spent a good half his life living and working abroad I say end citizen-based taxation, repeal FATCA, and implement residency based taxes.

I'm well aware of the counterarguments, mostly by people who have never made significant earnings abroad, who say that I cannot escape my tax obligations by living elsewhere. This is particularly the case with those who favor raising taxes, because they don't want a bunch of folks to up and leave for someplace with lower taxes, especially those in the highest income bracket. To that I say, you can still get your taxes from the millions of foreign expats and green card holders in the US.

What do you say NSG? Which is better, citizen-based or residency based taxation?

Taxation based on strict representation within the proper jurisdiction. Repeal all taxes that do not conform to this principle. The arrogance of the IRS to usurp our traditional constitutional principles is treachery. I do not know when we stopped following those principles but the sooner the US returns to them the better off the citizens will be.

The IRS doesn't control the US tax system. Congress sets the taxes, the IRS has to collect them.