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[DEFEATED] Repeal GAR#408 Ban On Secret Treaties

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Jocospor
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[DEFEATED] Repeal GAR#408 Ban On Secret Treaties

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:11 am

General Assembly Resolution #408 “Ban on Secret Treaties” (Category: Furtherment of Democracy; Strength: Mild) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

The General Assembly,

Appreciating that General Assembly Resolution #408 (herein GAR#408) contains relevant and significant content, and was likely conceived without malice.

Concerned, however, with various aspects of GAR#408.

Noting that GAR#408 lists only the negative affects of what it terms "secret diplomacy." Wishing to clarify that such negotiations can indeed be of benefit, for reasons including but not limited to the following:

Secret alliances between various member states during wartime can often check the balance of power and lead to swifter resolutions, particularly if said alliances are being practised by member states acting defensibly; and

"Ambiguous relations" (defined as: "relations and/or diplomatic agreements that are not necessarily codified and made publicly available") between various member states can often act as a deterrent to aggressive nations, since such nations are more likely to lie dormant than risk involving themselves in what could potentially become a lost cause.

Further noting that GAR#408 concentrates only on "secret diplomacy" taking place during wartime. Understanding that "secret diplomacy" can operate in many other sectors, including but not limited to trade, and convinced that secret diplomacy has the capability to, in this instance, foster economic advantages.

Concluding that the disadvantages within GAR#408 outweigh the advantages.

Therefore, repeals GAR#408 Ban On Secret Treaties.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:23 am

22 minutes ago: Bears Armed: Illegal — Proposals must be written from the viewpoint of the GA, not as addresses TO the GA; also, WA committees (such as this Judicial one) are presumed to be incorruptible -- and efficient, too -- (OOC so that authors don't have to expend some of the limited number of characters allowed in a proposal trying to explain how their committees will work; IC because the WA will not admit that its agencies could be flawed) so arguments based on potential corruption are not allowed.
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Democratic Empire of Romania
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Postby Democratic Empire of Romania » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:12 am

No hope for it.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:48 am

Good on you for posting a discussion thread. Not-so-good on you for submitting before you posted the thread. The idea is that you post a [DRAFT] to get input, then post your legal submission.

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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:04 am

[OOC: Updated, should be legal now]
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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"Destroy democracy. End degeneracy. Love your Emperor. Thou shalt know no fear."
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am

Jocospor wrote:[OOC: Updated, should be legal now]


(OOC: Legal does not mean good, it is strongly advised to wait until sufficient feedback has been given before submission, to give your draft the best chance of passing. Don’t submit before a time period has passed that has allowed editing of your repeal.)
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:29 pm

Jocospor wrote:[OOC: Updated, should be legal now]

Frisbeeteria wrote:Good on you for posting a discussion thread. Not-so-good on you for submitting before you posted the thread. The idea is that you post a [DRAFT] to get input, then post your legal submission.

Fris isn't talking out of their ass. Please wait for input before rushing to submit.

Jocospor wrote:Thus, hereby:

Permits the practise of "secret diplomacy" between member states of this World Assembly; and

Clarifies that such negotiations may concern a variety of fields, to be determined on a case-by-case basis by the participating member states.

This part in particular is illegal. You cannot legislate in repeals. The only active clause may be the repeals clause.
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Democratic Empire of Romania
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Postby Democratic Empire of Romania » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:35 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Jocospor wrote:[OOC: Updated, should be legal now]


(OOC: Legal does not mean good, it is strongly advised to wait until sufficient feedback has been given before submission, to give your draft the best chance of passing. Don’t submit before a time period has passed that has allowed editing of your repeal.)

He has submitted one 2 months ago and called forum drafting a chance of corrupting the proposal.
Last edited by Democratic Empire of Romania on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:26 am

Democratic Empire of Romania wrote:He has submitted one 2 months ago and called forum drafting a chance of corrupting the proposal.

And it lost. Badly.

But at least it was legal! And no corrupting influences like "anyone else's opinions" were allowed in! So, effective business model for losing the vote. Good job, author.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:30 am

Democratic Empire of Romania wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:
(OOC: Legal does not mean good, it is strongly advised to wait until sufficient feedback has been given before submission, to give your draft the best chance of passing. Don’t submit before a time period has passed that has allowed editing of your repeal.)

He has submitted one 2 months ago and called forum drafting a chance of corrupting the proposal.

Just the sort of secretive behaviour this resolution was designed to prevent!
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Democratic Empire of Romania
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Postby Democratic Empire of Romania » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:24 am

It's kinda funny that Jocospor said that he has "plenty of secret alliances that are bigger than I could think of".
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'I've seen a lot of things in my life. I've seen war, darkness. But I've seen hope. And that hope lives with us. Our souls. It's in us. It always is.' - High Imperator Constantin I, during The Second Interdimensional War, 3002 AD

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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:58 am

We have since amended the repeal proposal, and it has now been deemed legal by the General Secretariat.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | OFFICE OF THE VICEROY | DELEGATE'S OFFICE
JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


"Destroy democracy. End degeneracy. Love your Emperor. Thou shalt know no fear."
- Farland Macmillan, Grand High Direktor of the Empire, addressing the 3rd Imperial Cabinet

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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:47 am

Jocospor wrote:We have since amended the repeal proposal, and it has now been deemed legal by the General Secretariat.

Again, just as a reminder; "Legal" =/= "Good".

And this ain't good
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Democratic Empire of Romania
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Postby Democratic Empire of Romania » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:42 am

Grays Harbor wrote:
Jocospor wrote:We have since amended the repeal proposal, and it has now been deemed legal by the General Secretariat.

Again, just as a reminder; "Legal" =/= "Good".

And this ain't good


But he is talented in writing them.

Legal =/= Good
Salutare tuturor Românilor de pe NationStates !

'I've seen a lot of things in my life. I've seen war, darkness. But I've seen hope. And that hope lives with us. Our souls. It's in us. It always is.' - High Imperator Constantin I, during The Second Interdimensional War, 3002 AD

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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:49 am

There is nothing wrong with this repeal proposal. We strongly believe here in the Confederation that secret alliances are of benefit to all political doctrines, whether such be democratic or dictatorial.

The fact that such restrictive legislation was allowed to pass in the first place shows an error in judgement of certain World Assembly member nations. This is not the first instance of this, either.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | OFFICE OF THE VICEROY | DELEGATE'S OFFICE
JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


"Destroy democracy. End degeneracy. Love your Emperor. Thou shalt know no fear."
- Farland Macmillan, Grand High Direktor of the Empire, addressing the 3rd Imperial Cabinet

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Democratic Empire of Romania
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Postby Democratic Empire of Romania » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:09 pm

Jocospor wrote:There is nothing wrong with this repeal proposal. We strongly believe here in the Confederation that secret alliances are of benefit to all political doctrines, whether such be democratic or dictatorial.

The fact that such restrictive legislation was allowed to pass in the first place shows an error in judgement of certain World Assembly member nations. This is not the first instance of this, either.

You've wrote it carefully and has a well-looking aspect. We'll see how it goes at vote.
Salutare tuturor Românilor de pe NationStates !

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Hiram Land
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Postby Hiram Land » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:21 pm

very nice proposal.

The UNOE WA Delegate (me) has approved this bill and will vote yes when this bill goes to the voting floor.

good luck!
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Jocospor
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Postby Jocospor » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:01 pm

We thank you for your support in this matter. Thanks to nations like your own, we're going to be able to restore the World Assembly as a judicious and moderate collective.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


"Destroy democracy. End degeneracy. Love your Emperor. Thou shalt know no fear."
- Farland Macmillan, Grand High Direktor of the Empire, addressing the 3rd Imperial Cabinet

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:01 pm

There are two, I'll be generous, 3 arguments: (1) secret treaties may be useful at defeating a foe, (2) secret treaties produce deterrence, and (3) secret treaties may be useful at changing the terms of trade.

Argument 1 is an invitation for nations to deceive each other about what gets what out of a war, this is bad since it encourages people to overpromise. Overpromising creates ripe conditions for further conflict. The World Assembly has an ethical obligation to prevent future conflict. A body made up of persons which have ethical obligations does not absolve those persons of those obligations.

A real world example of this is Italy after the First World War, where territories from the Austro-Hungarian Empire were not transferred at war end, leading to the rise of strong nationalist movements. Similarly, there was significant conflict in the post-Great War Near East, where Arabia was engulfed in internecine warfare due to broken promises by the Entente. These kinds of issues, and the preceding issues that led to the Great War itself, are why Wilson proposed the elimination of secret diplomacy in his Fourteen points.

Argument 2 is necessarily false. You cannot deter anyone if you don't tell them. If you read Mearsheimer's treatise on deterrence, the largest factor is the expected cost incurred by an invading force. Insofar as the invading force doesn't know about costs, that doesn't appear in the decision calculus. The counterargument here is basically baiting wars. But that fails the Assembly's ethical obligation to prevent future conflict.

Argument 3 could be true if (a) nations conspiring had significant international market control and (b) you believe tariffs are good. But I'd say warrant (a) is false because NS is too large and warrant (b) sucks because tariffs are bad. There can be situations where national welfare increases with tariffs. But you need to exercise significant market control. Otherwise, deadweight loss always outweighs. And the existence of that loss means such imposition harms the nation doing so.

If you interpret it another way, like a trade agreement, that makes even less sense. How could someone effectively do trade if the government has concealed tariff rates from them? Or if the breadth of the free trade zone is unknown? Both of these create significant risk, which increases the expected costs of doing business, leading to people doing less of it. Either way, it doesn't make sense.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:26 pm

No draft, no support. Thanks for making my vote easy to decide, I guess.
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:36 pm

"If this had been drafted for a sufficient period of time, it could have had this delegation's support. As it turns out, you did not think to do this, so we must automatically vote against."
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Currently centre-right on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts our democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Shaktirajya
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Postby Shaktirajya » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:09 pm

We, the People's Hindu Matriarchy of Shaktirajya, hereby vote FOR this resolution in concert with Our regional delegate Davelands. No more thought has been given to the matter. It seems to us, a fool's errand to prohibit secret treaties as they are by their very nature, secret.

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Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:30 pm

How did this thing reach a vote?
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Postby Sciongrad » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:30 pm

OOC: Heads up, all. Unfortunately, we did not notice this early enough, but the repeal at vote currently misinterprets GAR#408 in violation of the honest mistake rule. The "further noting" clause states that GAR#408 focuses "only on "secret diplomacy" taking place during wartime." In fact, the resolution applies to secret diplomacy in all contexts. It only mentions war specifically in two preamble clauses, and nowhere does it limit its effects to war. The resolution, therefore, will be discarded if the voters fail to reject it.
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The United Orthodox States
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Postby The United Orthodox States » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:34 pm

OOC: Damn.
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