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Pragmatarian Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Xerographica
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Pragmatarian Discussion Thread

Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:39 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:If you want a thread to discuss your economic theory, make a thread about it specifically.

Last night I watched a PewDiePie video about Lil Tay. Nearly 600,000 people have given it a thumbs up. You've probably all heard of PewDiePie, but have any of you heard of Samuel C. Rickless? A few days ago I read his paper about democracy...

Unfortunately, throwing out the scientific method will have very serious repercussions on George’s ability to live in a world that has been sculpted by the results of scientific investigation. Most every artifact used by human beings has been vetted by science. If George abjures reliance on science, then he is rationally committed to abjuring reliance on modern means of transportation (cars, airplanes), communication (cell phones), information transmission (television, wifi), shelter (skyscrapers), food production (synthetic products), sanitation (the sewage system), energy delivery (electricity, gas), medical care (drugs, surgical procedures), and more. It would be irrational for George to place a television advertisement, call his legislator, drive to church, turn on his air conditioner, take painkillers for a headache, and do most of the things he takes for granted without thinking of the scientific imprimatur they have received. - Samuel C. Rickless, A Transcendental Argument For Liberalism

I e-mailed the author and pointed out that the relative effectiveness of democracy has not been vetted by science. He responded, which kinda surprised me, but he didn't seem bothered by my observation, which didn't surprise me. Personally, I'm super perturbed by the fact that democracy has not been vetted by science, which is why I've been conducting my own experiments here on NationStates...

Experiment #1
Experiment #2
Experiment #3 (ongoing)

There have been a "few" very outspoken critics. They really don't appreciate that the only reason that I'm conducting these informal experiments is because nobody has conducted any formal ones. Some real scientists have conducted a formal experiment to determine whether there's a correlation between menstrual cycles and conservatism, but absolutely no real scientists have conducted a formal experiment to determine whether ballot voting (BV) or donation voting (DV) is more effective at ranking things. And it's not like BV and DV are purely theoretical mechanisms. All the scholarly papers in the world are ranked by BV while all the non-profits in the world are ranked by DV. These two ranking mechanisms are significantly responsible for determining the social order... but they aren't equally effective at doing so. It either is, or isn't, beneficial that BV ranks PewDiePie much higher than Rickless.

In terms of science, what's awesome about pragmatarianism is that it evolved from something that we, the members of this forum, could not test (people choosing where their taxes go) into something that we can test (BV VS DV). But even though we can, at least informally, test pragmatarianism, do we have any sort of obligation to do so? Of course! The professional scientists have overlooked something incredibly important. They have a huge blindspot when it comes to ranking mechanisms. Therefore, in order to uncover a fundamental truth about our world, we must rise to the challenge. We have to become citizen scientists.

In this thread we won't just discuss pragmatarianism, we'll use BV and DV to help rank pragmatarianism and its alternatives. In order to BV for your preferred political system simply share it in a reply to this thread. In order to donate for it, you must make a purchase from the NationStates store. You can't purchase Telegraph Stamps because doing so doesn't put a trophy on your Nation page, which is the only acceptable proof of purchase. Once you've made your purchase reply to this thread with the amount rounded up (ie $2.99 -> $3) and indicate your preferred political system. Previous purchases/donations cannot be applied to your preferred system. If you already have Postmaster-General, then in order to donate for your preferred system, you’ll have to make a purchase for somebody who doesn’t already have Postmaster-General. It's a great gift to give!

Rules

- Voting with puppets is prohibited
- You can only have one preferred political system
- System names can't be longer than six words
- Changing your vote requires a persuasive argument
- Previous donations can’t be applied to your preferred political system
- Screenshots can’t be used as proof of donation
- Trophies will be used as proof of donation

Results

BVDV
6 - capracracy
4 - FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY SPACE COMMUNISM
3 - ultranational socialism
3 - democratic socialism
2 - pragmatarianism
1 - anarcho-chadism
1 - traditionalist conservatism
1 - rechtgläubigen vollhandarbeiter alltagslebener sexualitätsapathischer antipragmatartistischer Syntheseanarchismus
1 - classical liberalism
1 - republican libertarianism
1 - third position libertarianism
$45 - capracracy
$23 - pragmatarianism

Discussion

- Is BV or DV better at ranking things?
- How could NS make it easier for us to test the difference between BV and DV?
- Should people have the option to use their donations to help rank non-profits?
- Should people have the option to use their Netflix fees to help rank its content?
- Should people have the option to use their tax dollars to help rank government activities?

[Survey last updated to include Lord Dominator's input]
Last edited by Xerographica on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 31 times in total.

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Fourth time's the charm? Also I'm a democratic socialist. 'S a vote.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:50 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:Fourth time's the charm? Also I'm a democratic socialist. 'S a vote.

You, a person, are a democratic socialist... but how do I put this in terms of a system? Democratic socialism?

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:51 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Holy Therns wrote:Fourth time's the charm? Also I'm a democratic socialist. 'S a vote.

You, a person, are a democratic socialist... but how do I put this in terms of a system? Democratic socialism?


Yes.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:58 pm

This thread needs to be locked for false advertising.

I wanted a pragmatarian thread, but instead, I got "Donate to vote" thread #4
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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:00 pm

What's the matter, the rules of your last vote weren't rigged well enough so you're starting over?
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 pm

Hammer Britannia wrote:This thread needs to be locked for false advertising.

I wanted a pragmatarian thread, but instead, I got "Donate to vote" thread #4

If you truly wanted a pragmatarian thread, then you'd be genuinely joyful for another opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:This thread needs to be locked for false advertising.

I wanted a pragmatarian thread, but instead, I got "Donate to vote" thread #4

If you truly wanted a pragmatarian thread, then you'd be genuinely joyful for another opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

Or you could, you know, not make threads about a voting system that has been proven to fail 3 times over?

You know, I'll bite, Anarcho-Chadism is the best
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:04 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:What's the matter, the rules of your last vote weren't rigged well enough so you're starting over?

In the last thread we were only supposed to discuss/debate which book is the best in the world. In this thread you can criticize pragmatarianism and its associated experiments.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:12 pm

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Xerographica wrote:If you truly wanted a pragmatarian thread, then you'd be genuinely joyful for another opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

Or you could, you know, not make threads about a voting system that has been proven to fail 3 times over?

You know, I'll bite, Anarcho-Chadism is the best

Why do you believe that DV has been proven to fail 3 times over? And, if you truly believe this, have you created a thread to argue that DV shouldn't be used to rank all the non-profits in the world?

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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Or you could, you know, not make threads about a voting system that has been proven to fail 3 times over?

You know, I'll bite, Anarcho-Chadism is the best

Why do you believe that DV has been proven to fail 3 times over?

It might be because you haven't proven it to work 3 times over...
And, if you truly believe this, have you created a thread to argue that DV shouldn't be used to rank all the non-profits in the world?

No, because we don't need to beat a dead horse.
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Xerographica wrote:Last night I watched a PewDiePie video about Lil Tay. Nearly 600,000 people have given it a thumbs up. You've probably all heard of PewDiePie, but have any of you heard of Samuel C. Rickless?

A few hours ago, I was watching the BBC Parliament channel for live coverage of the EU Withdrawal Bill's final approval by the House of Commons. Literally the entire country has an opinion on it. You've probably heard of Theresa May before... but do any of you know who Gianluca Pagliuca is?
Xerographica wrote:In this thread we won't just discuss pragmatarianism, we'll use BV and DV to help rank pragmatarianism and its alternatives.

List of things I am not surprised by
by Tinhampton, the free man

This list is incomplete. You can help Tinhampton by expanding it.

1. The above statement by Xero
Hammer Britannia wrote:[Xerographica's donation voting model] has been proven to fail 3 times over

However, Xero's experiments have not been peer-reviewed nor tested for statistical significance. Furthermore, it can hardly be said that DV has necessarily "failed" with a small, self-selecting sample taking part in Xero's survey(s), even fewer of which engage in donation voting over ballot voting. How can you confidently say, as a result, that DV has consistently failed?
In more serious news... Pragmatarianism, in short, is choosing where your tax dollars go (in our little game, the tax you pay is $5 Postmaster status and your potential "government departments" are political ideologies). With true pragmatarianism, you have the ability to choose how much of your tax goes to each sector. In Xerographican pragmatarianism, however, you must pick one sector towards which all of your "tax" must go towards. It can therefore perhaps be argued (certainly by myself) that Xerographica's exhibited model of pragmatarianism is not bona-fide pragmatarianism, but rather the vanilla-flavour "donation voting" which he has quickly accrued a reputation for.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Or you could, you know, not make threads about a voting system that has been proven to fail 3 times over?

You know, I'll bite, Anarcho-Chadism is the best

Why do you believe that DV has been proven to fail 3 times over? And, if you truly believe this, have you created a thread to argue that DV shouldn't be used to rank all the non-profits in the world?

I don't need to make a thread, the idea speaks for its damn self

It promotes rich billionaires to rig every election they want by donating as much as they can in order to rig the election in their favor

If me and 5 other people all bough Postmaster-General, for example, and all voted for anarcho-chadism we'd instantly win.

At the very least, you aren't good at running these threads because they always degrade into senseless whining on both sides
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:19 pm

You know, you promised that you would drop this if standard voting ranked Wealth of Nations higher than "donation voting".

Why don't you keep your promises, Xero?
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:20 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Why do you believe that DV has been proven to fail 3 times over?

It might be because you haven't proven it to work 3 times over...

I haven't proven DV to work, therefore it doesn't work?

The Two Jerseys wrote:
And, if you truly believe this, have you created a thread to argue that DV shouldn't be used to rank all the non-profits in the world?

No, because we don't need to beat a dead horse.

You either do, or do not, believe that DV works. If you don't believe that DV works, then why wouldn't you argue against it being used to rank non-profits?

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:25 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:It might be because you haven't proven it to work 3 times over...

I haven't proven DV to work, therefore it doesn't work?

Actually, it's less that you haven't proven it to work, and more that you've proven it doesn't work, and bad actors very quickly subvert the system.

Incidentally, i have brought this up before.
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:27 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Last night I watched a PewDiePie video about Lil Tay. Nearly 600,000 people have given it a thumbs up. You've probably all heard of PewDiePie, but have any of you heard of Samuel C. Rickless?

A few hours ago, I was watching the BBC Parliament channel for live coverage of the EU Withdrawal Bill's final approval by the House of Commons. Literally the entire country has an opinion on it. You've probably heard of Theresa May before... but do any of you know who Gianluca Pagliuca is?

I admit that I have never heard of Gianluca Pagliuca. Is this a problem?

Tinhampton wrote:In more serious news... Pragmatarianism, in short, is choosing where your tax dollars go (in our little game, the tax you pay is $5 Postmaster status and your potential "government departments" are political ideologies). With true pragmatarianism, you have the ability to choose how much of your tax goes to each sector. In Xerographican pragmatarianism, however, you must pick one sector towards which all of your "tax" must go towards. It can therefore perhaps be argued (certainly by myself) that Xerographica's exhibited model of pragmatarianism is not bona-fide pragmatarianism, but rather the vanilla-flavour "donation voting" which he has quickly accrued a reputation for.

Right now if you make a $10 donation to NationStates... you can decide how you divide it between your preferred political system and your favorite book. How you divide your donation between these two things will reflect how you want the world's attention to be divided between them.

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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:29 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:It might be because you haven't proven it to work 3 times over...

I haven't proven DV to work, therefore it doesn't work?

Yes, that's generally how the universe functions.
The Two Jerseys wrote:No, because we don't need to beat a dead horse.

You either do, or do not, believe that DV works. If you don't believe that DV works, then why wouldn't you argue against it being used to rank non-profits?

What do you think I've been doing in your threads?
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:30 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:I haven't proven DV to work, therefore it doesn't work?

Actually, it's less that you haven't proven it to work, and more that you've proven it doesn't work, and bad actors very quickly subvert the system.

Incidentally, i have brought this up before.

Here are a bunch of cats ranked by DV. Go ahead and subvert the system.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:31 pm

I thought it would've been inherently obvious that being able to vote on something without spending money to do so is the vastly superior system, because its literally free.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:32 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:
Xerographica wrote:You either do, or do not, believe that DV works. If you don't believe that DV works, then why wouldn't you argue against it being used to rank non-profits?

What do you think I've been doing in your threads?

Quote where you've argued that DV shouldn't be used to rank non-profits.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:Actually, it's less that you haven't proven it to work, and more that you've proven it doesn't work, and bad actors very quickly subvert the system.

Incidentally, i have brought this up before.

Here are a bunch of cats ranked by DV. Go ahead and subvert the system.

No thanks.

Tired of doing the same trick over and over again. Three times is enough.
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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:37 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:What do you think I've been doing in your threads?

Quote where you've argued that DV shouldn't be used to rank non-profits.

Oh ye of little memory...
The Two Jerseys wrote:Giving money to a charity helps people in need, which makes donors feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Ranking charities in a poll does jack shit.

The Two Jerseys wrote:Why should charities be ranked in the first place?
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:39 pm

Grenartia wrote:I thought it would've been inherently obvious that being able to vote on something without spending money to do so is the vastly superior system, because its literally free.

The main concern is that your theory has not been vetted by science. We can disagree about theories, but hopefully we should strongly agree about the necessity of science.

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:42 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Here are a bunch of cats ranked by DV. Go ahead and subvert the system.

No thanks.

Tired of doing the same trick over and over again. Three times is enough.

You know, I just got to looking at this...

The highest ranked cat is the one eared toothless cat that looks slightly mentally handicapped to boot.

Seriously - THIS cat is winning:

Image

I don't need to subvert the system. Somebody already did.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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