Fashion Banner

[Christ Triumphant]

Hello, just wanted to make an observation regarding the Fashion Banner ("Develop a World Class Fashion Industry")



I have received this banner a number of times, and each time it has sat somewhat uneasy with me. It appears, to my untrained eye, to be composed of nothing but white female models. Perhaps one is a white Hispanic model, but even if this is true, that's hardly more than a token victory.

I do not know how Banners are composed or compiled, so maybe this is simply the result of limitations. If not, however, then this Banner would benefit from some infusion of diversity. Who knows, maybe even a male model or two..?

I'm not complaining or trying to make demands, I am simply bringing this to your attention as a place where potential improvement may be made. I am just a relatively tone-deaf, straight white male, yet even I noticed something off about the depiction of one's national fashion industry.

Thank you for your time.

[Sadakoyama]

It should be Zoolander and Hansel. Or Mugatu.

[New Neruda]

This doesn't particularly seem like a big deal to me. While it definitely wouldn't hurt for it to be more inclusive, there are plenty of other banners that do and this is the only one I've seen (with more than one person) that only has white people in it. It doesn't seem very necessary to make a new banner for the sake of having it be more inclusive.

[Christ Triumphant]

This doesn't particularly seem like a big deal to me. While it definitely wouldn't hurt for it to be more inclusive, there are plenty of other banners that do and this is the only one I've seen (with more than one person) that only has white people in it. It doesn't seem very necessary to make a new banner for the sake of having it be more inclusive.

Normally, I would agree with you. However, in this specific case, it portrays your nation's fashion industry, which is all about projecting cultural standards of beauty.

But, as you said, other banners are quite inclusive -- the series for gaining civil rights, something like Faces of Nation, is especially. So, maybe it's not a big deal. Still, it makes me a little uneasy each time I receive it...

[Trotterdam]

What I find weird about this banner is that even though it's supposedly given for having a thriving fashion industry, it mostly shows models' faces with very few visible clothes.

I have received this banner a number of times, and each time it has sat somewhat uneasy with me. It appears, to my untrained eye, to be composed of nothing but white female models. Perhaps one is a white Hispanic model, but even if this is true, that's hardly more than a token victory.

Don't you mean "Hispanic female"?

[Sanctaria]

If you can direct the admin team to an appropriate photo that is copyright-free, and is the right size/quality ofc, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. Changes have been made in the past.

[New Neruda]

What I find weird about this banner is that even though it's supposedly given for having a thriving fashion industry, it mostly shows models' faces with very few visible clothes.

Honestly this is more concerning to me than the lack of inclusiveness.

[Mallorea and Riva]

IIRC the photos were bought as a bundle for use on NS. So that explains why it may not be the most satisfying possible image for the category.

If you can direct the admin team to an appropriate photo that is copyright-free, and is the right size/quality ofc, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. Changes have been made in the past.

It's up to Admin obviously but finding an appropriate replacement image couldn't hurt.

[Sadakoyama]

IIRC the photos were bought as a bundle for use on NS. So that explains why it may not be the most satisfying possible image for the category.

If you can direct the admin team to an appropriate photo that is copyright-free, and is the right size/quality ofc, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. Changes have been made in the past.

It's up to Admin obviously but finding an appropriate replacement image couldn't hurt.

Photo obtained here.

[All Wild Things]

Thanks to the OP for bringing the topic up. I agree that this banner is rather odd. I also found the "Faces of..." banners rather disconcerting - #1 to #7 were all pictures of pretty women. #8 was a relief, when we finally got some male totty.
Let's face it, by definition, at least half of us have below average looks. What's with picking out pictures of pretty women?

[Christ Triumphant]

First of all, let me just say that I didn't think this post would generate much discussion -- for some reason, I assumed posts in "Technical" would mainly be seen by mods, so I just wanted to leave this little observation.

Let me see if I can restate my point a little more clearly:

NationStates has many international members. The built-in conceit of the game is that you can create any type of nation, anywhere in the world. Then, when you receive a banner regarding your nation's Fashion Industry, it is composed of nothing but more-or-less identical white female models. The models used by the Fashion Industry are understood, even in real life, to represent the cultural norms for standards of beauty.

I think it would somehow be better if it were showing simply one model; the fact that it depicts a row of eleven panels of one white female model after another seems to reinforce the message.

That said, I understand better now the restrictions that NS is operating under:

IIRC the photos were bought as a bundle for use on NS. So that explains why it may not be the most satisfying possible image for the category.

If you can direct the admin team to an appropriate photo that is copyright-free, and is the right size/quality ofc, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. Changes have been made in the past.

It's up to Admin obviously but finding an appropriate replacement image couldn't hurt.

So, it may not be reasonable to make such a change. I have no idea what goes into acquiring images for use in the game.

What I find weird about this banner is that even though it's supposedly given for having a thriving fashion industry, it mostly shows models' faces with very few visible clothes.

I have received this banner a number of times, and each time it has sat somewhat uneasy with me. It appears, to my untrained eye, to be composed of nothing but white female models. Perhaps one is a white Hispanic model, but even if this is true, that's hardly more than a token victory.

Don't you mean "Hispanic female"?

Here in the US, we have a demographic category "White Hispanic" -- people of European descent who are from Latin American regions, but who are for all intents and purposes "White". Not sure where you're from, Trotterdam, so I was just pointing out the distinction I was making there. But it is kind of a dumb category...

[Sanctaria]

Your image seems appropriate and we have changed banners before, as far as I can recollect, but it's up to [violet] to do. We Editors have suggested banners before and they've been acquired and put in place so it's not unreasonable, but it's not something we have final say on.

[violet] will come across this thread at some point and can make her own determination. If it falls off the front page, maybe check with moderation if you can bump it up again so make sure she spots it; I'm not a mod so can't advise on that aspect of things.

[The Official United Nations]

It is true that it displays a strange 'beauty standard' in your nation. Since this banner is about appearance, seemingly, the people used do come across as too similar in that regard. It is worth considering.

Thanks for bringing up the problems of this banner, OP.

[Tessen]

Do we really need to impose the racial diversity preferences of a small group of people upon all NS players, though? I, for one, like this banner as-is. It is visually interesting (colors, contrast, and image content), and that is the primary point of national banners, is it not?

I don't mind the addition of new banners, heck, add more racial diversity in them if you want (I have nothing against diversity), but to assume that we need to change an optional game banner for everyone, just because there isn't enough racial diversity in that one banner, seems like a bit of an overreach for a game like this.

Let the players that like this banner use it on their nation pages. And those that do not like it (for whatever reasons), don't have to select it from among the available options.

[Luna Amore]

I don't see any pressing issue with the current banner and suspect it would still be available for editor use even if changed as it's paid for. That said, here's a relevant post by [v] concerning new banner suggestions. Shutterstock is the go to site to hunt for images right now.

Bumping this since it seems to have been overlooked, and I'd like to get some comment on it. I'm especially wondering what Violet might have to say about the possibility of getting a new banner added at this point, or if I'll just have to use Custom ones for something like this.

It's definitely anticipated that we'll add more banners in the future, and I would like to hear ideas for new categories like this! Right now I'm focused on chasing bugs, since the priority is to get things working like they're supposed to. So I'm not in a position to sign off on new banners, but I would be very happy if people discuss what they'd like to see.

EDIT: Since this is now an OP, here is some more info! The hardest part of creating a new banner is finding the right image, which must:

1. look awesome
2. look awesome when cropped to a horizontal banner at 4:1 aspect ratio and when part of it is obscured
3. be at least vaguely related to the unlock criteria
4. (usually) resemble a "slice of life" of a nation
5. be freely licensed or else purchasable

Almost all our new banners were purchased from Shutterstock. (Your stamp money at work!) I would be happy to use them again, so if you are looking for an image to go with a particular banner, I recommend hunting there. Although do be aware that some images are marked "Editorial Use Only," which we cannot use.

[New Neruda]

Do we really need to impose the racial diversity preferences of a small group of people upon all NS players, though? I, for one, like this banner as-is. It is visually interesting (colors, contrast, and image content), and that is the primary point of national banners, is it not?

I don't mind the addition of new banners, heck, add more racial diversity in them if you want (I have nothing against diversity), but to assume that we need to change an optional game banner for everyone, just because there isn't enough racial diversity in that one banner, seems like a bit of an overreach for a game like this.

Let the players that like this banner use it on their nation pages. And those that do not like it (for whatever reasons), don't have to select it from among the available options.

imo the bigger problem is that it doesn't actually represent the fashion indutry, as it's supposed to.

[Luna Amore]

Do we really need to impose the racial diversity preferences of a small group of people upon all NS players, though? I, for one, like this banner as-is. It is visually interesting (colors, contrast, and image content), and that is the primary point of national banners, is it not?

I don't mind the addition of new banners, heck, add more racial diversity in them if you want (I have nothing against diversity), but to assume that we need to change an optional game banner for everyone, just because there isn't enough racial diversity in that one banner, seems like a bit of an overreach for a game like this.

Let the players that like this banner use it on their nation pages. And those that do not like it (for whatever reasons), don't have to select it from among the available options.

imo the bigger problem is that it doesn't actually represent the fashion indutry, as it's supposed to.

I disagree. They are all fashion shots. It gets the idea across and is visually appealing. It checks all the boxes of a banner.

[Christ Triumphant]

Do we really need to impose the racial diversity preferences of a small group of people upon all NS players, though? I, for one, like this banner as-is. It is visually interesting (colors, contrast, and image content), and that is the primary point of national banners, is it not?

I don't mind the addition of new banners, heck, add more racial diversity in them if you want (I have nothing against diversity), but to assume that we need to change an optional game banner for everyone, just because there isn't enough racial diversity in that one banner, seems like a bit of an overreach for a game like this.

Let the players that like this banner use it on their nation pages. And those that do not like it (for whatever reasons), don't have to select it from among the available options.

imo the bigger problem is that it doesn't actually represent the fashion indutry, as it's supposed to.

I think the primary point of contention here stems from the fact that, when most people think of "Fashion", they think "clothing"; however, hairstyle, makeup, jewelry, and accessories are also considered "Fashion." Therefore, at first glance, 11 images of women's faces seem to be a poor depiction of Fashion, while in reality, they are merely depicting certain aspects of Fashion that seem to be peripheral to the mainstream understanding of Fashion.

[Trotterdam]

I think the primary point of contention here stems from the fact that, when most people think of "Fashion", they think "clothing"; however, hairstyle, makeup, jewelry, and accessories are also considered "Fashion."

We only see small snippets of most models' hairstyles, which is often too little to draw a real opinion from.

Makeup is clearly visible: 5 out of 11 models are wearing eyeshadow, all but one of them in the same color at that, though the remaining 6 appear not to, or if they do it's almost identical to their natural skin color. Even if this does count as fashion, it's too similar to give a proper sense of fashion diversity, which you'd expect from a banner showing 11 different portraits to showcase a nation's thriving fashion industry.

Jewelry and accessories, again, are usually only seen only in clipped form in the corners, like on models #3 or #5. I'm not even sure what that think in the bottom-left of #11 is - it might be the camera angle, but it looks more like a background object than like something she's wearing.

Model #2 from the left isn't seen wearing anything artificial at all other than maybe some lipstick (her lips are probably too red to be natural, particularly compared to the other models, but I'm not sure). Model #1 is au naturel except for some very faint traces of eyeshadow. Model #8 looks completely natural, and even her hairstyle isn't visible much, except for a lock reaching her shoulders which doesn't even seem to be obviously styled. She's just a pretty woman, and admittedly, in real life, someone that pretty probably put some effort into looking that way rather than being truly natural, but you can't see that from the photo.

#7 is the best. We see enough of her hairstyle and clothing to get a decent sense of what the design is, though even then, we don't see the whole thing. #10, though mostly showing the face, at least has something fairly distinctive and unique decorating that face. The rest of the photos, though, are just pretty faces with very little fashion, even if you can argue that there technically is some.

[Christ Triumphant]

Yeah, I certainly won't argue with any of those points, especially regarding #1 and #7.

So you're actually more irritated by the banner's lack of relevance? What did you think of the suggestion Sadakoyama made?

(Image)

Photo obtained here.

[Trotterdam]

What did you think of the suggestion Sadakoyama made?

Well, that's at least clothing, which is better than what we have now. It doesn't strike me as especially pretty/glamorous clothing, but then there's no accounting for taste.

[Christ Triumphant]

What did you think of the suggestion Sadakoyama made?

Well, that's at least clothing, which is better than what we have now. It doesn't strike me as especially pretty/glamorous clothing, but then there's no accounting for taste.

Ha, that made me laugh. Alright, maybe something better will come along...

[Trotterdam]

Hm? I wasn't trying to be humorous.

[Christ Triumphant]

"but then there's no accounting for taste."

I dunno, I found a dry humor in it...

[Candlewhisper Archive]

To me, it's just a bunch of pics of women who are clearly models. I suspect that the image depicts mostly white models because of real world biases in the fashion industry - there's a hell of a lot of white models out there.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jameslim/5-top ... .laWJdNg30

For sure, if you go to a country that isn't ethnic majority white you'll see more non-white models, but it's certainly the case that in white countries you'll see non-whites under-represented, and in non-white countries you'll see white models over-represented. I mean, as a Chinese person I'm always surprised how many white faces I see on posters and adverts when I go to Hong Kong.

That's not to say we can't improve things here.

Last time violet added a load of images, she asked us all for contributions as to what the game needed. My main thoughts personally were that we needed more old people, more people looking unhappy, and more images of things going wrong. This was driven by the demands of Issues, of course.

We didn't really discuss ethnic diversity, and possibly we really should have done. Part of that may have been because Issue writing never assumes a nation's primary ethnicity, so for us it doesn't matter what ethnicities are shown in the pictures. However, looking at the pictures now I think we could definitely use more non-white faces.

Re: this particular image, it's one we quite favour in issues, simply because a well composed picture of lots of good looking women in a row is quite a useful one for us.

#32, #336 and #943 use it as an image for polygamy, which is a great little visual joke I think, but probably one we need to stop using.
#101 uses it in a complaint about beauty pageants.
#145 uses it on the smaller pic to just show some generic models.
#175 uses it on the smaller pic to indicate promiscuity.
#544 uses it on the smaller pic to highlight objectification of women.
#647 uses it on the smaller pic to theme about lesbians.

Oh and #29 uses it to highlight lack of ethnic diversity in media! So yeah, at least once an editor has noted these are all white faces!

As its so well-used, I suspect that even when/if we acquire new images it'll be one we keep around.