[SUBMITTED] Can I Borrow a Word?

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Possible issue for #1066.

[description]a group of disgruntled language connoisseurs have brought it to your attention that the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ language has recently been contaminated with too many loanwords from Merovingian and called for a government-sponsored language purification project, robbing you of your joie de vivre while you were trying to relax and enjoy your pamplemousse and noix de coco cocktail.

[validity] must have an official language

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" exclaims Harold Hastings, a linguist from @@CAPITAL@@ University, slamming the latest edition of the Maxford @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Dictionary on your desk. "These nasty Merovingian words full of nasal sounds have started to invade our glorious language. @@LEADER@@, we should immediately launch a language purification project to replace these hideous loanwords with their pristine @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ counterparts. My colleagues and I already have some suggestions on the table, such as eggy flapjacks for omelette, or hey-I've-seen-this-before for déjà vu. All we need to publish a comprehensive list is a generous subsidy on your part."

[effect]escargots have lost their charm for elite restaurant-goers ever since they started to be called 'cooked land snails'

2. [option]"Oh mon dieu! Excusez-moi, but this approach will not work, as it doesn't target the raison d'être for Merovingian loanwords," grunts William Norman, an enthusiastic Merovingian Literature professor from Cambarry University, with visible ennui. "The Merovingian culture is superior to ours, and so is their langue, par conséquent we need Merovingian words to express high-brow concepts such as rapprochement, savoir-faire, pain au chocolat, la petite mort, and je ne sais quoi. @@LEADER@@, the importation of Merovingian words is fait accompli, and trying to reverse this will only be a faux pas. Let us embrace Merovingian words and linguistic diversity, vive la différence!"

[effect]@@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ feuilletons can only be deciphered with a Merovingian dictionary

3. [option]"Bah humbug!" grunts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a bellicose army general, angrily smashing a Merovingian merlot bottle on the floor. "We don't have to tolerate this nonsense. Let's bomb Merovingia down to the ground and colonize them. They'll learn our language soon enough!"

[effect]@@NAME@@ is renowned for shoving its culture down the throats of colonial subjects

OK, this is obviously work-in-progress, but I also couldn't decide whether I should have a 3rd option, or whether this should remain as a 2-way dilemma.

For a possible 3rd option, some of my ideas are:

---we are borrowing Bigtopian words, because their cultural influence is great. So we should do something to decrease their cultural influence, and increase feelings of nationalism/patriotism among our youth. Maybe we can provide incentives for people who choose native words over Bigtopian words.

---Why is @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ our national official language at all? Since Bigtopian is much better in expressing these concepts, maybe we should simply recognize it as a second official language, or maybe we should completely switch to using Bigtopian.

---Crazy general who wants to bomb Bigtopia down to the ground.

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Thoughts?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I love the concept, though I should warn you that Quia Scriptum Est (which complains about loanwords in a different and indirect context, so no overlap there) has one of the highest issue dismissal rates in the game.

I'm afraid a lot of folk these days faced with unfamiliar foreign phrases are more inclined to give up than to infer meaning or seek translation.

I'd also note a mild but non-critical overlap with 71, which sets up a national academy in 71.1. Nowhere near a dealbreaker, but should be read and considered.

More broadly I'd be inclined to broaden the scope of this issue to include loanwords from many languages, rather than just French.

Finally, I'd note that Bigtopia isn't really a good France expy. Brancaland might be better, being mostly Canadian with a little Frenchness to it.

[Jutsa]

Brancaland might be better, being mostly Canadian with a little Frenchness to it.

Or Merovingia, perhaps?

I honestly like this issue draft. Personally, I think there's not too much overlap since, unlike with that issue's final option which associates the language
with hard-for-your-people-to-understand phrases, this one assumes your people do know what's going on. (Plus that issue wasn't even about the language).

I'm honestly surprised people just pass it up. The fact that I can't understand half the language in there is a huge part of why I like it so much.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Oh yes, Merovingia for sure!

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Oh yes, Merovingia for sure!

Brancaland might be better, being mostly Canadian with a little Frenchness to it.

Or Merovingia, perhaps?

I honestly like this issue draft. Personally, I think there's not too much overlap since, unlike with that issue's final option which associates the language
with hard-for-your-people-to-understand phrases, this one assumes your people do know what's going on. (Plus that issue wasn't even about the language).

I'm honestly surprised people just pass it up. The fact that I can't understand half the language in there is a huge part of why I like it so much.

Alright, then, Merovingia it shall be!

I love the concept, though I should warn you that Quia Scriptum Est (which complains about loanwords in a different and indirect context, so no overlap there) has one of the highest issue dismissal rates in the game.

I'm afraid a lot of folk these days faced with unfamiliar foreign phrases are more inclined to give up than to infer meaning or seek translation.

I'd also note a mild but non-critical overlap with 71, which sets up a national academy in 71.1. Nowhere near a dealbreaker, but should be read and considered.

More broadly I'd be inclined to broaden the scope of this issue to include loanwords from many languages, rather than just French.

Finally, I'd note that Bigtopia isn't really a good France expy. Brancaland might be better, being mostly Canadian with a little Frenchness to it.

Are these phrases really unfamiliar to English speakers? Words like brunette, deja-vu, and savoir-faire are already frequently used in English, I think. I agree that pampelmousse and noix de coco may be more obscure, but this doesn't affect comprehension, since it is clear that they should be things that one can put in a cocktail.

Of course, Option 2 is the real killer here. But I don't know, like is it that hard to infer that "par conséquent" means "consequently?"

And people would actually see the humor if they just Googled the words pain au chocolat and la petite mort. (I obviously put them there to underline the contradiction between the professor's claim that these are words that denote "high-brow concepts" and the real meanings of these words.)

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So, now that we have a good candidate that we can use as a substitute for France, can I stick with French loanwords, or does your advice that I broaden this to loanwords from a multitude of languages still hold?

Also, can it stay as a 2-way dilemma, or would a 3rd option be welcome?

[The Marsupial Illuminati]

---

Deleted by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 32, 2008 13:11 pm, deleted 1 time in total.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Yeah, I agree, just saying keep it that way.

[Trotterdam]

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" exclaims @@RANDOMFIRSTNAME@@ Hastings, a linguist from @@CAPITAL@@ University, slamming the latest edition of the Maxford @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Dictionary on your desk. "These nasty Merovingian words full of nasal sounds have started to invade our glorious language. @@LEADER@@, we should immediately launch a language purification project to replace these hideous loanwords with their pristine @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ counterparts. My colleagues and I already have some suggestions on the table, such as black-head for brunette, or hey-I've-seen-this-before for déjà vu. All we need to publish a comprehensive list is a generous subsidy on your part."

I highlighted some French loanwords for you. (Not counting ones which came directly from Latin without going via French.)

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" exclaims @@RANDOMFIRSTNAME@@ Hastings, a linguist from @@CAPITAL@@ University, slamming the latest edition of the Maxford @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Dictionary on your desk. "These nasty Merovingian words full of nasal sounds have started to invade our glorious language. @@LEADER@@, we should immediately launch a language purification project to replace these hideous loanwords with their pristine @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ counterparts. My colleagues and I already have some suggestions on the table, such as black-head for brunette, or hey-I've-seen-this-before for déjà vu. All we need to publish a comprehensive list is a generous subsidy on your part."

I highlighted some French loanwords for you. (Not counting ones which came directly from Latin without going via French.)

For the purposes of this issue I assume that only the words that have preserved the French pronunciation are acknowledged as French loanwords.

[Australian rePublic]

There needs to be a "languages evolve- deal with it" option which dismissed spelling mistakes as language evolution

[Dark Soulosius]

There needs to be a "languages evolve- deal with it" option which dismissed spelling mistakes as language evolution

Make it someone texting from their phone: B4 u all get OLD, u should mke language in a way yng ppl can undrstnd. (I made this in 5 minutes, but you get the picture right?)
[effect] Language arts teachers are fired across the entire nation.

[Australian rePublic]

There needs to be a "languages evolve- deal with it" option which dismissed spelling mistakes as language evolution

Make it someone texting from their phone: B4 u all get OLD, u should mke language in a way yng ppl can undrstnd. (I made this in 5 minutes, but you get the picture right?)
[effect] Language arts teachers are fired across the entire nation.

More like: "What youse talkin' about?" asks teenager, @@RANDOMNAME@@, whilst texting on @@HIS@@ phone, "My teacher told me that languages are always gonna evolve and that they've been evolving since, like, forevs. Don't tell me youse spoke the same as you'se parents! Embrace the changes, @@LEADER@@"
[effect] spelling mistakes are often dismissed as language evolution

[Dark Soulosius]

Through in some old english, “thow is unworth”

[Chan Island]

I'm surprised that the option 1 speaker isn't called Harold Hastings.

Also, usually the hegemon culture and language established in other issues is Maxtopia. As it stands, I read 'Merovingian' and I think of that time I visited Aachen.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

"black-head for brunette" is a funny line, but brunette hair is brown, not black.

[Trotterdam]

For the purposes of this issue I assume that only the words that have preserved the French pronunciation are acknowledged as French loanwords.

"Colleague", at least, looks conspiciously French. The silent "ue" ending isn't found in native English words. ("E" by itself is, of course, another matter.)

"black-head for brunette" is a funny line, but brunette hair is brown, not black.

I've heard people use it for black hair as well, allegedly because most "black" hair is really just really really really really really dark brown, in terms of the genes and pigments involved. I confess annoyance at that usage, however.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

"black-head for brunette" is a funny line, but brunette hair is brown, not black.

Ah, yes, I just realized that. Thanks for correcting me, in that case, as I thought it applied to dark hair colors in general, encompassing both brown and black.

Could black-head still be a nickname for a brunette, though? I mean, we are not very consistent in how we name certain colors in language anyway. So, for example, what is called black pepper is strictly speaking not black either, it is brown. It seems we sometimes carelessly lump together similar colors when categorizing them. Given that tendency, could black-head still remain?

And if it really sounds inappropriate, I think I could try using one of the novel labels below for brunette.

--- brownie

---hazelnut-haired

---tawny-tressed

Thoughts on this? I couldn't find anything as funny as "blackhead" so I was after alliteration as the next best thing.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Could go with yellow-head for blonde.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Could go with yellow-head for blonde.

Blonde, unfortunately, is not as French-sounding as brunette. (And though English borrowed "blonde" from French, the word itself ultimately had Germanic roots, unlike "brunette," which is a pure-blood French word, born and bred.)

I'll try to think of something else. Thanks.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Hey, how about re-naming omelettes as "eggy flapjacks?"

[Trotterdam]

Could black-head still be a nickname for a brunette, though? I mean, we are not very consistent in how we name certain colors in language anyway.

True. What we call "red" hair is more orange or reddish-brown, and we might well have been just calling it "brown" if we didn't already need that name for a less-red shade of brown. (There's enough examples in anime and video games of what actual red hair would look like.)

The usual rule in zoology is that "red" means orange, "blue" means gray, and "gray" means white. "Black" does tend to mean black, though.

For that matter "black" means brown when referring to human skin colors.

In the end, though, I don't see why you would want to call it that. It's not particularly amusing.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Could black-head still be a nickname for a brunette, though? I mean, we are not very consistent in how we name certain colors in language anyway.

True. What we call "red" hair is more orange or reddish-brown, and we might well have been just calling it "brown" if we didn't already need that name for a less-red shade of brown. (There's enough examples in anime and video games of what actual red hair would look like.)

The usual rule in zoology is that "red" means orange, "blue" means gray, and "gray" means white. "Black" does tend to mean black, though.

For that matter "black" means brown when referring to human skin colors.

In the end, though, I don't see why you would want to call it that. It's not particularly amusing.

I think it is.

It's an alternative name for a comedone.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Absolutely, and it's why it works.

Shame there's no fancy french word for black hair.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Absolutely, and it's why it works.

Shame there's no fancy french word for black hair.

Haha, you know what, I Googled it and saw that some people suggested that we use the word "noirette" for that.

Anyway, what do you think about "eggy flapjacks" for omelettes?

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Well, OK, eggy flapjacks made it into the issue.

Do you guys recommend having a 3rd option here, or is it good as a 2-way dilemma? Are the options reasonable enough?