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Should Rural Votes be Weighted Against Urban Votes?

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San Lumen
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Should Rural Votes be Weighted Against Urban Votes?

Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 1:55 pm

Ive seen multiple comments suggesting that legislatures should be redrawn and instead of being done by population it should be weighted in favor of rural communities. For example in my state of New York, Hamilton County (the least populous county) should have more representation than someone in the Bronx.

This was the case in many state legislatures prior to a Supreme Court decision entitled Reynolds V Sims in 1964 which established one man one vote and drawing state legislatures to favor rural communities over urban areas was unconstitutional and that electoral districts must be roughly equal in population. Chief Justice Earl Warren famously wrote “Legislators represent people, not trees or acres. Legislators are elected by voters, not farms or cities or economic interests."

I have even heard some suggest that statewide elections should be determined not by how many votes a candidate receives but how many counties they carry. How that is even remotely fair or democratic is beyond me.

The concept of weighted votes is why I oppose the Electoral College as it makes land area count more than raw votes.

However this is not just a United States issue it could certainly be applied to other countries as well. Canada for example. The current government won its majority by sweeping urban areas.

The concept of one man one vote is very important in any democracy. No person's vote should count more than someone else's because of where they reside.

What's your take NSG?
Last edited by San Lumen on Mon May 21, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Mon May 21, 2018 1:57 pm

The two-house legislature of the US federal government arguably should, in this current system, be applied to state legislatures as well. Rural communities, being in the minority population, deserve an equal voice to urban communities.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 1:59 pm

Torrocca wrote:The two-house legislature of the US federal government arguably should, in this current system, be applied to state legislatures as well. Rural communities, being in the minority population, deserve an equal voice to urban communities.


But populations are unequal so there is no way you could draw a state legislature to give a supposedly equal voice unless you dont believe in one man, one vote.

Why should someone in Hamilton County my states least populous county get more of a say than someone in Brooklyn?

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Postby Xelsis » Mon May 21, 2018 2:00 pm

No, they shouldn't, but making the process for secession within a state (e.g., downstate Illinois splitting off from Chicago) easier would be nice, and help avoid some of the tensions and frustrations that come with urban domination.
Last edited by Xelsis on Mon May 21, 2018 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:01 pm

Xelsis wrote:No, they shouldn't, but making the process for secession within a state (e.g., downstate Illinois splitting off from Chicago), would be nice, and help avoid some of the tensions and frustrations that come with urban domination.


That is someone for a individual state to decide and I would not call it urban domination. Representation is based on population not land area.

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Postby Freezic Vast » Mon May 21, 2018 2:01 pm

Not everyone is saying that rural communities should have more representation than urban communities, it should be EQUAL representation, do you not understand the difference between what equal means?

What I want is propositional representative way of voting, similar to what the people of Scotland have when they vote for the Scottish Parliament, we need eletoral reform, and I think proportional representational voting is the best way to ensure equal representation fro rual and urban communities have an equal voice in government.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Mon May 21, 2018 2:02 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Torrocca wrote:The two-house legislature of the US federal government arguably should, in this current system, be applied to state legislatures as well. Rural communities, being in the minority population, deserve an equal voice to urban communities.


But populations are unequal so there is no way you could draw a state legislature to give a supposedly equal voice unless you dont believe in one man, one vote.


Populations are unequal in states to, yet we have the two-house legislature at the federal level. It makes sense to have it at the state level, where less-populous counties can get an equal say to more-populous ones.

Why should someone in Hamilton County my states least populous county get more of a say than someone in Brooklyn?


Why should a majority living in one small, condensed area get a say over everyone else living spread out and away from that area?
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Mon May 21, 2018 2:03 pm

No. Not at all. My county with less than 6,000 people should not have the exact same say as Fairfax with 1.1 million. That's ridiculous.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Freezic Vast wrote:Not everyone is saying that rural communities should have more representation than urban communities, it should be EQUAL representation, do you not understand the difference between what equal means?

What I want is propositional representative way of voting, similar to what the people of Scotland have when they vote for the Scottish Parliament, we need eletoral reform, and I think proportional representational voting is the best way to ensure equal representation fro rual and urban communities have an equal voice in government.


If every county in a state had equal population than you could have equal representation but they dont so therefore equal representation as you want it is impossible.

Proportional representation often does not lead to a majority government. Ask someone from Israel a country than has never once had a majority government.

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Postby Xelsis » Mon May 21, 2018 2:05 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Xelsis wrote:No, they shouldn't, but making the process for secession within a state (e.g., downstate Illinois splitting off from Chicago), would be nice, and help avoid some of the tensions and frustrations that come with urban domination.


That is someone for a individual state to decide and I would not call it urban domination. Representation is based on population not land area.


It's for Congress to decide, actually, they're the ones who set the standards for new states.

Representation not being based off of land area does not change the existence of urban domination. You have in several states, Illinois being the example I'll use, since I already started with it, and since I live there, where you have what are, in essence, two different worlds, and one in which one can win a single county (Cook) and lose the other hundred-plus, and still win a statewide election. Is it democratic? Sure. Is it ideal? Not really. A split is a better option.
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Postby Uiiop » Mon May 21, 2018 2:05 pm

While i do agree with OP that weighted votes are a problem. Practically speaking however the electoral college actually puts in the opposite direction.

For example Florida despite apparently being one of the "Underdogs" is actually the third most populated state and has less rural people than New York in percentage & raw numbers.

So at least when dealing with the EC the people OP is against kinda have a point.

Oh and maybe the two houses idea is needed too.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon May 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:The two-house legislature of the US federal government arguably should, in this current system, be applied to state legislatures as well. Rural communities, being in the minority population, deserve an equal voice to urban communities.

Yes, my community in Maryland with 5% of the population should have the same representation as the other 95% of Maryland. :)
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Postby The United Lands of Ash » Mon May 21, 2018 2:06 pm

Torrocca wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
But populations are unequal so there is no way you could draw a state legislature to give a supposedly equal voice unless you dont believe in one man, one vote.


Populations are unequal in states to, yet we have the two-house legislature at the federal level. It makes sense to have it at the state level, where less-populous counties can get an equal say to more-populous ones.

Why should someone in Hamilton County my states least populous county get more of a say than someone in Brooklyn?


Why should a majority living in one small, condensed area get a say over everyone else living spread out and away from that area?

Because they have more people, that's how a majority works.
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Postby Kvatchdom » Mon May 21, 2018 2:06 pm

No, a farmer in a small town is not worth 12 urban voters.
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Postby Uxupox » Mon May 21, 2018 2:06 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Xelsis wrote:No, they shouldn't, but making the process for secession within a state (e.g., downstate Illinois splitting off from Chicago), would be nice, and help avoid some of the tensions and frustrations that come with urban domination.


That is someone for a individual state to decide and I would not call it urban domination. Representation is based on population not land area.


i dunno about this. If for example the majority of NYC wants a pipeline to run through upstate New York while the residences of that area have a majority that do not want it. Who should get the final say?
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Postby Torrocca » Mon May 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Torrocca wrote:The two-house legislature of the US federal government arguably should, in this current system, be applied to state legislatures as well. Rural communities, being in the minority population, deserve an equal voice to urban communities.

Yes, my community in Maryland with 5% of the population should have the same representation as the other 95% of Maryland. :)


Only in a state senate with equal representation per county. A state house of representatives could have representation proportional to population. :^)
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Torrocca wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
But populations are unequal so there is no way you could draw a state legislature to give a supposedly equal voice unless you dont believe in one man, one vote.


Populations are unequal in states to, yet we have the two-house legislature at the federal level. It makes sense to have it at the state level, where less-populous counties can get an equal say to more-populous ones.

Why should someone in Hamilton County my states least populous county get more of a say than someone in Brooklyn?


Why should a majority living in one small, condensed area get a say over everyone else living spread out and away from that area?



No it doesnt because than one side would always be favored and with the level of animosity and divide could lead to even further gridlock.

And I say again because representation is not based on land area. Would you think it was fair if statewide officials were elected not by who receives the most votes but by how many counties they win?

Here is a prime example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_ ... tion,_2014

Would you think it was fair that the Republican was elected even though they only got 40 percent of the vote?

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Postby Neu Leonstein » Mon May 21, 2018 2:08 pm

Nope. The closer you get to one person-one vote, the better.

Land doesn't have interests. People do. The location of the people is irrelevant to their value. If a small number of people live in the countryside somewhere and is outvoted by people who live in a city, that is no different to a small number of people in that city being outvoted by a majority in the same city. We need to stop enabling rent seeking and subsidy farming by rural communities.
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Postby Freezic Vast » Mon May 21, 2018 2:08 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Freezic Vast wrote:Not everyone is saying that rural communities should have more representation than urban communities, it should be EQUAL representation, do you not understand the difference between what equal means?

What I want is propositional representative way of voting, similar to what the people of Scotland have when they vote for the Scottish Parliament, we need eletoral reform, and I think proportional representational voting is the best way to ensure equal representation fro rual and urban communities have an equal voice in government.


If every county in a state had equal population than you could have equal representation but they dont so therefore equal representation as you want it is impossible.

Proportional representation often does not lead to a majority government. Ask someone from Israel a country than has never once had a majority government.

No it wouldn't, you don't need urban areas to have more representation than rural communities and vice versa, it's unequal representation that is only in favor of one area just because it has more people.

That's because other countries have multiple parties with more chance of winning seats, that won't happen in a country where it's completely dominated by two parties like the U.S.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Uxupox wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
That is someone for a individual state to decide and I would not call it urban domination. Representation is based on population not land area.


i dunno about this. If for example the majority of NYC wants a pipeline to run through upstate New York while the residences of that area have a majority that do not want it. Who should get the final say?


I think it that case their would debate in the legislature about it. I doubt it would just be rammed through.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Uxupox wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
That is someone for a individual state to decide and I would not call it urban domination. Representation is based on population not land area.


i dunno about this. If for example the majority of NYC wants a pipeline to run through upstate New York while the residences of that area have a majority that do not want it. Who should get the final say?

The larger majority.
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Postby Xelsis » Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
i dunno about this. If for example the majority of NYC wants a pipeline to run through upstate New York while the residences of that area have a majority that do not want it. Who should get the final say?

The larger majority.


Tyranny by majority is tyranny nonetheless.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Say fuck it and let Canada annex the US. Replace Urban VS Rural with a representative from a Urban and a Rural district.

They both win.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:10 pm

Freezic Vast wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
If every county in a state had equal population than you could have equal representation but they dont so therefore equal representation as you want it is impossible.

Proportional representation often does not lead to a majority government. Ask someone from Israel a country than has never once had a majority government.

No it wouldn't, you don't need urban areas to have more representation than rural communities and vice versa, it's unequal representation that is only in favor of one area just because it has more people.

That's because other countries have multiple parties with more chance of winning seats, that won't happen in a country where it's completely dominated by two parties like the U.S.


So the majority the Liberal Party in Canada has is unfair because they won almost every urban seat in the country? Granted their majority is not based strictly on urban votes but a large portion comes from them.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon May 21, 2018 2:11 pm

Xelsis wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:The larger majority.


Tyranny by majority is tyranny nonetheless.

and tyranny of the minority is somehow better?

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