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All men are created equal

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The Parkus Empire
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All men are created equal

Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 1:45 pm

John Adams wrote:The Declaration of Independence I always considered as a Theatrical Show. Jefferson ran away with all the stage effect of that; i.e. all the Glory of it.


Are all men created equal? And is consent the basis of society? What are your opinions on these, the two stilts of liberalism (Hobbes claims all men are by nature equal)?

As a conservative, I firmly reject them (Russell Kirk likewise thought the United States Declaration of Independence to contain much gibberish, even if the act of Independence itself was proper and called for; Friedrich von Gentz expressed the same position in The Origins and Principles of the American Revolution, compared with the Origin and Principles of the French Revolution, which was translated by John Quincy Adams) . Taking "All men are created equal" at face value, it is patently absurd. It would mean all men are fungible. No two persons are equal, neither are any two peoples--imagine if every Russian in Russia were replaced by an American: the country would be utterly transformed over night. And does anyone seriously believe that an infantry platoon composed entirely of men would perform the same as one composed entirely of women? No, human beings are not fungible.

Let us then take a more practical approach to this statement: it is paraphrase from the first draft of the Virginian Constitution, by George Mason: "That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent natural Rights, of which they cannot by any Compact, deprive or divest their Posterity; among which are the Enjoyment of Life and Liberty, with the Means of acquiring and possessing Property, and pursuing and obtaining Happiness and Safety."

Well this first part is obviously wrong of course. Men were not born "equally free" in Virginia at that time. Made it should have read, "Ought to be born equally free and independent". Of course, men obviously "ought" to be born with gumdrop trees and houses made of gingerbread as well.

Suffice it to say, this belief in the equality of man makes no sense. And "natural rights," i.e. rights "endowed by God", obviously don't mean a right to sin. That doesn't mean all forms of sin must be illegal, which would make us all convicts. But to say one has a "right to sin" is of course nonsense, at least within the framework of natural rights. If one throws out the very idea of natural rights, that's another story though.

Anyhow, moving on to the next topic, the idea of society being based on "consent", i.e. "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". That consent plays a large role in society, and that it always accomplishes better than coercion, of that there can be no doubt. But that society is founded principally on consent, that idea is simply not true. As Orestes Brownson observed in The America Republic, the American Civil War decisively put that liberal misconception of the "social contract" to bed: states which did not want to be a part of the union were simply told they have no choice, and were forced to be a part. Without coercion, collective sufficient taxes would be impossible, as would having a national border. In fact, private property itself would be impossible. And the idea of sovereign borders and private property go hand-in-hand: the very legitimacy of one is the same as the legitimacy of the other. To have one but not the other would be wholly inconsistent.

One other fallacy I would like to note is "abstract nationalism". It's very popular in America, I don't know about elsewhere. This is the idea that a country or a nation is an "idea" or a "dream" rather than a distinct land and people. Imagine if you will a man who lives in Virginia in a town settled by his ancestors in the 17th Century. Imagine this man's greatest treasure is the land, his neighbors and his family. Now imagine this man is a communist. It would be absurd to call him "unamerican", by which standards a Swedish businessman who doesn't even live here is more "American". No, no, no. This very strange perspective leads some people who really don't value their land or neighbors to say they "love their country". They really don't, the land and your neighbors, those are your country--unless of course you are outside your country. This is like someone who claims to "love books" and yet detests reading.

So, again, are all men created equal? And is consent the basis of society? What are your opinions on these?
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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New Bradenia
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Postby New Bradenia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:47 pm

I guess :unsure:

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Postby Berhakonia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:49 pm

Why is this even a question?
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Postby Huntpublic » Tue May 15, 2018 1:52 pm

You're probably right, I believe all men are created in the eyes of God, so maybe not all men think the same(not equally) and cannot physically be the same. Maybe it is sort of a figure of speech or something like that?
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm

Sorry that you hate freedom.
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Postby Berhakonia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Sorry that you hate freedom.


Wew lad
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue May 15, 2018 1:55 pm

This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 1:56 pm

Huntpublic wrote:You're probably right, I believe all men are created in the eyes of God,

I don't know what you mean by that. You mean equally loved? If so, I would agree. If you mean God created John the Baptist and Thomas Jefferson equal, I wouldn't agree.
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New Bradenia
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Postby New Bradenia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

Berhakonia wrote:Why is this even a question?


Because he may have came up with it

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.

By this logic every man in America deserves the right to polygamy because men in many Muslim countries have it.
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Auze
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Postby Auze » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

It means that all humans deserve the same rights.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.

Equity before the law, correct.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 1:58 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.

Equity before the law, correct.

TIL illegal immigrants have the right to vote.
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Postby Vassenor » Tue May 15, 2018 1:59 pm

So is this another exercise in the slippery slope fallacy?
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Vassenor wrote:So is this another exercise in the slippery slop fallacy?

Not sure what you mean.
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Postby Pilarcraft » Tue May 15, 2018 2:00 pm

I'm confused. Is this a blog post? or a rant? or a very long opening without any question to challenge the readers?
That aside, the only part I really agree with you is the fact that "Abstract nationalism" is bullshit.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.

By this logic every man in America deserves the right to polygamy because men in many Muslim countries have it.

I said "rights" not "laws". As in the Bill of Rights, or the U.N. Human rights.
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Corneliu Zelea Codreanu
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Postby Corneliu Zelea Codreanu » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

Equality is a fallacy.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

Vassenor wrote:So is this another exercise in the slippery slop fallacy?

It's another exercise in "I love tradition and America, except for the bit where I hate it and reject it on the most simple, basic levels imaginable"

A true traditionalist to the core. =^)
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Postby Berhakonia » Tue May 15, 2018 2:02 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So is this another exercise in the slippery slop fallacy?

It's another exercise in "I love tradition and America, except for the bit where I hate it and reject it on the most simple, basic levels imaginable"

A true traditionalist to the core. =^)


Okay strawman
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 2:03 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:By this logic every man in America deserves the right to polygamy because men in many Muslim countries have it.

I said "rights" not "laws". As in the Bill of Rights, or the U.N. Human rights.

The Bill of Rights is U.S. Law, I see no reason why it holds in every country. Furthermore it did not grant any rights against state governments until the 14th Amendment.

The U.N. declaration of human rights, which says that the family is the basis of society (the idea that the individual is the basis of society was vetoed as ridiculous)?
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Postby Vassenor » Tue May 15, 2018 2:03 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So is this another exercise in the slippery slop fallacy?

Not sure what you mean.


The Parkus Empire wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This quote is used to mean that every human deserves the same rights as others.

By this logic every man in America deserves the right to polygamy because men in many Muslim countries have it.


This would be a pretty good example.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue May 15, 2018 2:03 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:I said "rights" not "laws". As in the Bill of Rights, or the U.N. Human rights.

The Bill of Rights is U.S. Law, I see no reason why it holds in every country. Furthermore it did not grant any rights against state governments until the 14th Amendment.

The U.N. declaration of human rights, which says that the family is the basis of society (the idea that the individual is the basis of society was vetoed as ridiculous)?

Yes, those.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm

Vassenor wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Not sure what you mean.


The Parkus Empire wrote:By this logic every man in America deserves the right to polygamy because men in many Muslim countries have it.


This would be a pretty good example.

It's clearly not true and very laughable.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm

"All men are created equal" pretty much means that no one should be discriminated against.
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