NATION

PASSWORD

We need more Regime Change

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Regime Change does...

More good than bad
32
15%
More bad than good
140
65%
As much bad as good.
43
20%
 
Total votes : 215

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

We need more Regime Change

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:20 am

A week or so ago, President Donald Trump bombed Syria after claims that the dictator Bashar al-Assad used chemical weapons on civilians - a warcrime. Trump was not being strong when he did this. Immediately after, he fell back, and now President Emmanuel Macron is doing his work to ensure America continues to play a role in Syria. This brings a new discussion to the table: whether its time for regime change in Syria, or not? But its not just Syria we should be discussing. Across the world, there are numerous dictators who need to be taught a lesson. The US, UK, France and allies have been successful in regime change in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, and I think its time we take it a step further and continue regime change in . Today there are several countries still ran by anti-western dictators, and we must act as a unified force to take them out. I will list them below.

Myanmar, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Belarus, Cuba, North Korea, Palestine and Venezuela.

In the interests of spreading democracy, free markets and liberty, I believe that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation should end its status as a defensive organisation, and transform into what it should be: a military organisation for liberating the downtrodden victims of totalitarianism. What do you all think? Is it time we shown Russia and China that we're not to be messed with anymore? Or should we sit by idly as authoritarianism runs rampant, and human rights abuses are committed by the allies of our enemies?

My personal opinion is that we need to funnel more money into the military and immediately move in to take out dictators trampling on civilians.
Last edited by Ascysia on Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neoconservative

User avatar
Fifth Imperial Remnant
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 21
Founded: Aug 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fifth Imperial Remnant » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:22 am

If you want to start WWIII than go ahead...

Edit: What I mean to say is those Dictatorships have somewhat the backing of Russia and/or China. If we something to rash like change NATO from defensive, the outcome could be full on global war.
Last edited by Fifth Imperial Remnant on Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 am

Fifth Imperial Remnant wrote:If you want to start WWIII than go ahead...

World War Three will never happen. Actually that's a lie. As long as dictators and terrorists pursue WMDs and attack the West, it could begin at any moment. Read up on the Democratic Peace Theory.
Neoconservative

User avatar
Yymea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1113
Founded: Sep 23, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yymea » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:25 am

Man, if you're gonna list dictatorships, add Saudi Arabia to the list, US allies ain't goody two shoes lol
Aaah christ
Uinted Communist of Africa wrote:The world would rally against it in a desperate bid to crush the SJWs agenda.....

Yeeted councillor and member of theLCRUA
I support insanely high tax rates, do you?
Linnuis wrote: There's nothing at all stupid about the all leftists under twenty-fives online football challenge match... against the fascists.

Benaroon wrote:An army so russian, i want to invade Ukraine just by looking at it.

sleet clans wrote: I WILL BUILD MASSIVE RAILGUNS AND FIRE CANISTERS OF EBOLA AT THEM
CLARO QUE PODEMOS
M8, if u wag ur IQ around, u ain't smart, go outside, shut up and listen to a woman
❤❤❤ANARCHO PRIMITIVISTS DON'T INTERACT❤❤❤

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76521
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:25 am

Ascysia wrote:The US, UK, France and allies have been successful in regime change in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq,

No. We were not.

Successful regime change involves a successful transition as well.

We fucked Afghanistan by going into Iraq and letting the Taliban recover and regroup, we fucked Iraq by betraying the Awakening Councils for Al-Maliki, and we fucked Libya by doing absolutely nothing to maintain stability after overthrowing Gaddafi's government.

I'm a supporter of regime change, but it has to be done right.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Western-Ukraine
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1161
Founded: Oct 27, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Western-Ukraine » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:26 am

In the long term, yes, I agree. But it's not the most realistic option as of now to wage war on that many fronts, lest we have too many foes united against us. Fueled by the most primitive instinct, of course, survival.

Wars are also expensive and the US (and its allies) can't afford too many of them.
Factbooks: National Politics
Region: U R N

Politics is a zero-sum game.

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:27 am

Yymea wrote:Man, if you're gonna list dictatorships, add Saudi Arabia to the list, US allies ain't goody two shoes lol

Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally against Iran. They're not perfect, but they have the manpower and technology on them to help us. Once we stabilize the Middle East, we use our newfound democratic allies to deal with Saudi Arabia.

Conserative Morality wrote:
Ascysia wrote:The US, UK, France and allies have been successful in regime change in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq,

No. We were not.

Successful regime change involves a successful transition as well.

We fucked Afghanistan by going into Iraq and letting the Taliban recover and regroup, we fucked Iraq by betraying the Awakening Councils for Al-Maliki, and we fucked Libya by doing absolutely nothing to maintain stability after overthrowing Gaddafi's government.

I'm a supporter of regime change, but it has to be done right.

Afghanistan and Iraq were major successes, and Libya may look like it was bad but it wasn't us who started a civil war and prevented any nation building from happening.
Neoconservative

User avatar
The East Marches II
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13734
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:27 am

Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (
On vacation in 【Dubrovnik】
Will return if not killed by 【Montenegrins】

User avatar
Austria-Latvia
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Jan 08, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Austria-Latvia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:28 am

By forcing countries to do what they do not want to do is not the best way to do things, in my opinion. If you force everyone to accept liberal democracy, that's like forcing any other ideology on people.

User avatar
Yymea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1113
Founded: Sep 23, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yymea » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:28 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Ascysia wrote:The US, UK, France and allies have been successful in regime change in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq,

No. We were not.

Successful regime change involves a successful transition as well.

We fucked Afghanistan by going into Iraq and letting the Taliban recover and regroup, we fucked Iraq by betraying the Awakening Councils for Al-Maliki, and we fucked Libya by doing absolutely nothing to maintain stability after overthrowing Gaddafi's government.

I'm a supporter of regime change, but it has to be done right.

Eeh, I kinda doubt It can be done right thru direct foreign intervention. Financing opposition movements (that aren't as bad as the statu Quo, aka Venezuela) yeah, but not just slapping up some tanks in the name of freedom
Aaah christ
Uinted Communist of Africa wrote:The world would rally against it in a desperate bid to crush the SJWs agenda.....

Yeeted councillor and member of theLCRUA
I support insanely high tax rates, do you?
Linnuis wrote: There's nothing at all stupid about the all leftists under twenty-fives online football challenge match... against the fascists.

Benaroon wrote:An army so russian, i want to invade Ukraine just by looking at it.

sleet clans wrote: I WILL BUILD MASSIVE RAILGUNS AND FIRE CANISTERS OF EBOLA AT THEM
CLARO QUE PODEMOS
M8, if u wag ur IQ around, u ain't smart, go outside, shut up and listen to a woman
❤❤❤ANARCHO PRIMITIVISTS DON'T INTERACT❤❤❤

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:29 am

The East Marches II wrote:Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (

If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.
Neoconservative

User avatar
Kernen
Senator
 
Posts: 3919
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am

Ascysia wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (

If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.

Thats a damn good way to kill millions and millions.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Militant Atheist and Juris Doctor. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am

Austria-Latvia wrote:By forcing countries to do what they do not want to do is not the best way to do things, in my opinion. If you force everyone to accept liberal democracy, that's like forcing any other ideology on people.

Its completely different. The only way we can usher in an eternity of peace is by enforcing democracy and dealing with anti-democratic radicalism and terrorism.

Yymea wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:No. We were not.

Successful regime change involves a successful transition as well.

We fucked Afghanistan by going into Iraq and letting the Taliban recover and regroup, we fucked Iraq by betraying the Awakening Councils for Al-Maliki, and we fucked Libya by doing absolutely nothing to maintain stability after overthrowing Gaddafi's government.

I'm a supporter of regime change, but it has to be done right.

Eeh, I kinda doubt It can be done right thru direct foreign intervention. Financing opposition movements (that aren't as bad as the statu Quo, aka Venezuela) yeah, but not just slapping up some tanks in the name of freedom

Financing opposition is one way to do it. Financing opposition paramilitaries to start a war we can then get involved in? Now that's a much better idea.
Neoconservative

User avatar
The East Marches II
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13734
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am

Ascysia wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (

If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.


Yeah m8, you gonna actively suppress a shithole where there are bunch of small ethnic militias that all hate you? That sounds like trillions down the drain. If you want to deal with the Russians and Chinese, a couple of trillion could buy us a brand new shiny fleet!
On vacation in 【Dubrovnik】
Will return if not killed by 【Montenegrins】

User avatar
Western-Ukraine
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1161
Founded: Oct 27, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Western-Ukraine » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am

Ascysia wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (

If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.

But the bear isn't going to let you do that, is it?
Factbooks: National Politics
Region: U R N

Politics is a zero-sum game.

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:31 am

Kernen wrote:
Ascysia wrote:If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.

Thats a damn good way to kill millions and millions.

Millions may need to die to ensure peace. You need to look at the bigger picture.
Neoconservative

User avatar
The Holy Therns
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27003
Founded: Jul 09, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Holy Therns » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:32 am

Ascysia wrote:A week or so ago, President Donald Trump bombed Syria after claims that the dictator Bashar al-Assad used chemical weapons on civilians - a warcrime. Trump was not being strong when he did this. Immediately after, he fell back, and now President Emmanuel Macron is doing his work to ensure America continues to play a role in Syria. This brings a new discussion to the table: whether its time for regime change in Syria, or not? But its not just Syria we should be discussing. Across the world, there are numerous dictators who need to be taught a lesson. The US, UK, France and allies have been successful in regime change in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, and I think its time we take it a step further and continue regime change in . Today there are several countries still ran by anti-western dictators, and we must act as a unified force to take them out. I will list them below.

Myanmar, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Belarus, Cuba, North Korea, Palestine and Venezuela.

In the interests of spreading democracy, free markets and liberty, I believe that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation should end its status as a defensive organisation, and transform into what it should be: a military organisation for liberating the downtrodden victims of totalitarianism. What do you all think? Is it time we shown Russia and China that we're not to be messed with anymore? Or should we sit by idly as authoritarianism runs rampant, and human rights abuses are committed by the allies of our enemies?

My personal opinion is that we need to funnel more money into the military and immediately move in to take out dictators trampling on civilians.


And YOU get millions of casualties! And YOU get millions of casualties! EVERYBODY GETS MILLIONS OF CASUALTIES!
My fans rate me higher than Brussels sprouts.
Your new favorite.
MTF transperson. Will be addressed as she. Lives in Sweden.
Also, N A N A ! ! !
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜

Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.

User avatar
Fifth Imperial Remnant
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 21
Founded: Aug 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fifth Imperial Remnant » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:32 am

Ascysia wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:Nah, you just gotta treat them like kids, remind them who is boss from time to time. There is no point in toppling a skrub, then you have a mess : (

If we deal with them once and for all,there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.


In order for this to happen, we would have to get Russia and China on our side to do it. North Korea is a prime example.

User avatar
Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23982
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:32 am

Or y'know, we could stop shovelling the lives of young adults into the meat grinder of interventionist wars. Not to mention the untold billions wasted on making Iraq and Afghanistan such trash heaps.
Last edited by Telconi on Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Kernen
Senator
 
Posts: 3919
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Ascysia wrote:
Kernen wrote:Thats a damn good way to kill millions and millions.

Millions may need to die to ensure peace. You need to look at the bigger picture.


You need to consider your math. Starting a war preemptively is more costly than the status quo, because the authoritarian regimes aren't killing people as fast as a war would.

You also falsely assume that one war would be the end of it, and wouldn't create other issues. Long term economic failure, long term refugee crises, instability that leads to further violence, overextension of national resources to deal with a non-native issue.

Bad idea is bad, and you should feel bad.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Militant Atheist and Juris Doctor. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

User avatar
Arkeyana
Minister
 
Posts: 2249
Founded: Mar 21, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Arkeyana » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Done gently and not all at once, it could work. But a sudden and forced change in regime can cause chaos on the government.
A 4 civilization, according to this index.
Post-Scarcity Utopia, ruled over by an omnipresent benevolent AI Network.
Generation 47, the first time you see this copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation
Rather obviously I don't use NS stats, although some do reflect my nation.

User avatar
Firaxin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1324
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Firaxin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Annexation gets the same desired result with less short term political disarray.
Male
I’d define myself as an Ethical Autocratic Socialist
Catholic
Distrusting but optimistic outlook on humanity
Pro: State Socialism, Imperialism, Secularism, Autocracy, Transhumanism, Moralism/Legalism, Pro-Consumer, Meritocracy, Populism, Protectionism, Ethical Socialism, Christian Socialism.
Neutral: Democracy, Republicanism, Zionism, Anti-Zionism, Communism
Anti: Capitalism, Anarchism, Monarchism, Ethno-Nationalism, Anti-Semitism, National Socialism, Fascism, Economic Liberalism, Oligarchy, Authoritarianism
Chastity and Lust
Temperance and Gluttony
Charity and Greed
Diligence and Sloth
Patience and Wrath
Kindness and Envy
Humility and Pride


Fuck EA

User avatar
Ascysia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Mar 25, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Ascysia » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Western-Ukraine wrote:
Ascysia wrote:If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.

But the bear isn't going to let you do that, is it?

They didn't stop us from bombing Syria twice. What can they do? Bad economy and a much weaker military. They couldn't stop us invading Syria, Belarus or Iran, they could only stop us invading them (at the moment anyway)

The East Marches II wrote:
Ascysia wrote:If we deal with them once and for all, there's no need to constantly remind them who's boss. If we keep doing that, tensions with Russia and China will get worse. We need to deal with their allies and shoot the bear's limbs, not poke its belly repeatedly.


Yeah m8, you gonna actively suppress a shithole where there are bunch of small ethnic militias that all hate you? That sounds like trillions down the drain. If you want to deal with the Russians and Chinese, a couple of trillion could buy us a brand new shiny fleet!

The goal is to cut off their allies, then we can deal with China and Russia straight on. We can't attack Russia directly right now, that's prime opportunity for China and the DPRK to invade Asia, and for Iran to attack Israel. All we need to do is bomb these ethnic militias until they submit, peace through strength. We need to stop being weak just because there's a threat of starting another war.
Neoconservative

User avatar
Dogmeat
Minister
 
Posts: 2204
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Let's just take Myanmar for example:
A big part of the problem there is that the government doesn't seem to actually control the military.

So you can get rid of the government, and install a new one. But your new government is going to be less legitimate, being the puppet regime of a foreign nation. Which means that the problem you have, that the government isn't really in control, is just going to get worse.

Regime change might be appropriate on a case-by-case basis. It isn't a catchall solution.
Immortal God Dog
Hey boy, know any tricks?
天狗

User avatar
Kernen
Senator
 
Posts: 3919
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am

Telconi wrote:Or y'know, we could stop shovelling the lives of young adults into the meat grinder of interventionist wars. Not to mention the untold billions wasted on making Iraq and Afghanistan such trash heaps.

People are always willing to throw young soldiers into the meat grinder when they aren't one of those soldiers.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Militant Atheist and Juris Doctor. Social liberal, but totally a closet Autocrat.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aclion, Al Mumtahanah, Araraukar, Ayissor, Chernoslavia, Ethel mermania, Google [Bot], Hammer Britannia, Ifreann, Ilefeb, Impaled Nazarene, Maowi, Melondonia, Nanatsu no Tsuki, Nea Byzantia, Novas Arcanum, Ors Might, Proctopeo, Skarten, Telconi, The Blaatschapen, The Emerald Legion, The Liberated Territories, Vistulange

Advertisement

Remove ads