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Frustrated at Issue 534

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Elberiande
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Founded: Mar 20, 2018
Ex-Nation

Frustrated at Issue 534

Postby Elberiande » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:51 am

Issue 534, Too Few Cooks in the Kitchen Option 3 implies it will implement a sortition policy, nothing else but it caused me this, now if you argue that sortition immediately means that there is NO elections that's just outright wrong, you can have multiple parliamentary chambers, one of which may be sortition, and at least one other elected. This is not even mentioning that it implied it would drastically decrease corruption yet instead INCREASED it for me. I'm unhappy with this issue and would like it fixed, how so may I go about that?

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Trotterdam
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:17 am

"As an added bonus, it would root out the corrupt career politicians and opportunists, since they couldn't run for office anymore." That certainly sounds like it's trying to abolish elections. More generally, the game just isn't geared to track that much nuance about different governing bodies - the most important governing body in your nation is now undemocratic, and any others are left to your imagination.

The option will in fact reduce Corruption for the majority of nations that choose it. As for why it didn't for you, I'm not sure, but maybe your nation was already so uncorrupt that any upset to the status quo can only make things worse.

The one result I do find questionable is repealing Devolution, because it seems entirely plausible for a sortition-based government to have policitians for local constituencies be selected from lotteries including only residents of those constituencies, and to give significant power to those randomly-selected local governments.

EDIT: Though it isn't relevant to you, I also have the option recorded as repealing Native Representation. While this is accurate to the letter of the policy's current description ("Only native-born citizens may hold elected office."), it does seem in spirit like you should be able to restrict the lotteries to natives.

In both cases, game-mechanically, this is just a matter of those policies being coded as automatically being invisible in non-democracies (though it's still tracked whether you had them, which will be restored if you return to democracy), rather than being specifically coded into #534.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Drasnia
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Postby Drasnia » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:05 pm

Hi! Author of the issue here :) Could you tell me what made you think any government election would be kept? I'd like to know so I can help you understand why you got the effects you did, as It seems to me that the option is pretty explicit in telling you government positions will be filled by sortition. I wrote it to be pretty clear and the editors kept it that way.

Cheers!

EDIT: Fixed punctuation
Last edited by Drasnia on Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:18 am

Trotterdam wrote:The one result I do find questionable is repealing Devolution, because it seems entirely plausible for a sortition-based government to have policitians for local constituencies be selected from lotteries including only residents of those constituencies, and to give significant power to those randomly-selected local governments.


Good point there.

Right now, devolution is coded to be deactivated in the absence of elections (though will reactivate automatically) in the reinstatement of elections.

Whether that dependency should be in place is a good question, and one with a lot of ramifications. Will raise it as a discussion backstage.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:59 am

For what it's worth, a mixture of autocracy and devolution is also entirely possible. That's basically what feudalism is, really.

(I've said before that I think the Autocracy policy shouldn't be shown in the presence of Sortition. They're entirely different ways of not having elections.)

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:05 am

Yep, I'm proposing that it shouldn't have dependencies at all. Devolution of power is separate to system of government, I think.

Thanks for flagging that.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:06 am

Trotterdam wrote:(I've said before that I think the Autocracy policy shouldn't be shown in the presence of Sortition. They're entirely different ways of not having elections.)


Autocracy is just the absence of elections, by game definition, and is a binary status. Could probably be implemented as you say. Will talk on that one as well.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Autocracy is just the absence of elections, by game definition, and is a binary status. Could probably be implemented as you say. Will talk on that one as well.
My previous argument on the subject can be read here, if you're interested.
Trotterdam wrote:Also, should nations with "Sortition" (which I confirmed is listed as a policy) also get "Autocracy"? While the description of "Autocracy", "The nation does not hold democratic elections.", is technically applicable to these nations, the word "autocracy" itself is not. In fact, sortition is the opposite of autocracy because it appoints people who never did anything to put themselves in power, not even run for office, and so certainly are not ruling solely by self-proclaimed authority.
Trotterdam wrote:I feel that it is pointless to display both policies, because there is no such thing as a sortition that does hold elections.
I am aware that binary statuses are easier to code, which is why policies tend to work that way behind-the-scenes, but they're not always the most intuitive model for player-displayed policies.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:24 am

Yeah, the whole player-displayed policies thing has been erratically implemented, not through any fault of the technical team, but because of the complexity of the task. Sometimes oddities are only emergent after time.

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Trotterdam
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:35 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Yeah, the whole player-displayed policies thing has been erratically implemented, not through any fault of the technical team, but because of the complexity of the task. Sometimes oddities are only emergent after time.
Oh, quite a few oddities have been emerging with my new program :)

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Elberiande
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Founded: Mar 20, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Elberiande » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:18 pm

Drasnia wrote:Hi! Author of the issue here :) Could you tell me what made you think any government election would be kept? I'd like to know so I can help you understand why you got the effects you did, as It seems to me that the option is pretty explicit in telling you government positions will be filled by sortition. I wrote it to be pretty clear and the editors kept it that way.

Cheers!

EDIT: Fixed punctuation


As Candlewhisper has said Sortition and Autocracy are extremely different systems of absences of election, and EVEN WITH sortition you could have a bicameral chamber in which one is elected via election and the other is filled via sortition. You may argue that this is still undemocratic but I will note that in the UK we currently have a system with an technically* elected chamber and then another chamber that is appointed.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:27 pm

Elberiande wrote:As Candlewhisper has said Sortition and Autocracy are extremely different systems of absences of election,
Candlewhisper did not say those things. I did. You appear to have overlooked the other things that I also said:
Trotterdam wrote:More generally, the game just isn't geared to track that much nuance about different governing bodies - the most important governing body in your nation is now undemocratic, and any others are left to your imagination.


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