Immigration Discussion: Its a hard knock life!

[Pamat]

Hello everyone! My first discussion so please mind that this will be cringed and bad. But hey might as well try...

Immigration and Migration are things humans have been doing since the dawn of humanity. First leaving Africa, then crawling into the North American grounds and then expanding world wide. Soon people started to think in there tribes and newly found coubtri “How can we keep the good in and bad guys out?”. So they made border control. Then there like “How much birder control?”. The left on politics be like “Let’s accept more people!” while the right be like “More regulation equals no bad guys!”. Back to 2018, everyone thinks different. Now it’s even more complicated with Immigration, because refugees, illegal immigrants and so much more!

Your opinion?

[Trumptonium1]

Long-term it's alright if the only people you accept are culturally compatible, there's assimilation and the guys coming in fill the skills gap. Short-term it's almost always bad.

Hungary has a gigantic labour shortage and instead of inviting a million low-skilled people to work for peanuts they're letting wages accelerate to raise living standards of the native working poor. I think there's rarely a justification for permitting low-skilled migration.

[Kubumba Tribe]

It's fine. I typed something about how I think the immigration process should work.

[Neu Leonstein]

Long-term it's alright if the only people you accept are culturally compatible, there's assimilation and the guys coming in fill the skills gap. Short-term it's almost always bad.

Hungary has a gigantic labour shortage and instead of inviting a million low-skilled people to work for peanuts they're letting wages accelerate to raise living standards of the native working poor. I think there's rarely a justification for permitting low-skilled migration.

Hungary also has obscenely high income from remittances for a supposedly developed country, so ... let's just say that it cuts both ways.

[Western-Ukraine]

Only highly skilled labour from the EU, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the United States should be permitted.

[Former Citizens of the Nimbus System]

Taking an economic view: unforced migration (made up of economic migrants) is almost always good for the receiving nation as a whole (though it may disadvantage people on lower incomes, making such things as progressive taxation, a competent welfare system and skills programs even more important); forced migration (made up of refugees) is almost always bad for the receiving nation but, given the moral imperative, should be accepted anyway. There's also the consideration of payments made by migrants to support their families in their countries of origin, which, in my view, are far more effective than governmental foreign aid tends to be (there are exceptions, of course).

Taking a social view: the faster that migration is (forced migration tends to be much faster than economic migration; see above moral imperative), the more socially problematic, given that this tends to result in segregated communities - multiculturalism rather than interculturalism - which do nothing for understanding, discussion or vibrancy. This doesn't mean that such problems cannot be overcome, of course.

[Pamat]

My migration views:

That countries should allow refugees and migrants to cross over, IF they don’t have any major criminal record. It should be kept limited of course, to prevent a mass influx, but overall its limited my ideas.

[Neu Leonstein]

Could I just ask that for every response, people indicate whether they have ever lived somewhere outside their country of birth? Because in my view, anyone who hasn't experienced it themselves is patently under-qualified to talk about questions of 'cultural fit' and 'assimilation'. You can't come to a reasonable position if you only know one side of the argument.

[Trumptonium1]

Long-term it's alright if the only people you accept are culturally compatible, there's assimilation and the guys coming in fill the skills gap. Short-term it's almost always bad.

Hungary has a gigantic labour shortage and instead of inviting a million low-skilled people to work for peanuts they're letting wages accelerate to raise living standards of the native working poor. I think there's rarely a justification for permitting low-skilled migration.

Hungary also has obscenely high income from remittances for a supposedly developed country, so ... let's just say that it cuts both ways.

First of all that data is inconsistent with Hungarian data from the central bank which puts remittances at just over $1bn a year, much lower than the $4.5bn suggested by the World Bank. The World Bank also purports a near doubling of remittances in a single year from the United States to Hungary in 2012 -> 2013, which is inconsistent with migration data from both Hungary and the US, and the entire general boom in remittances in Hungary from 2010 onwards is left unexplained. Hungary was in line with their regional neighbours before 2012.

Also Hungarian remittances have only vaguely increased since their ascendancy to the EU, or to be more precise, have only gradually recovered from the financial crisis when sending remittances was presumably more difficult

The fact that Portugal's remittances have undergone a freefall from 3% of GDP to 0.2% of GDP between 1998 and 1999 suggests it's World Bank's methodology which is shit.

---

Either way, what's your point?

Doesn't cut both ways. Hungary doesn't benefit from outward migration. How are remittances related to Hungary's labour market anyway?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Could I just ask that for every response, people indicate whether they have ever lived somewhere outside their country of birth? Because in my view, anyone who hasn't experienced it themselves is patently under-qualified to talk about questions of 'cultural fit' and 'assimilation'. You can't come to a reasonable position if you only know one side of the argument.

American who has lived in Australia for a year. Does that help?
Also, my take how immigration should work in my view:
My vetting process requirements for refugees (and other immigrants) would be this:
1: No violent criminal record in the past 5 or 10 yrs
2 (only for refugees): Refugee has to have tried to live in another part of his/her home country for safety; if that didn't work, then he/she would have to find the nearest country that would help him/her; if that didn't work, welcome
3: Recommended that they speak the language of the host country, but the host country should still provide language courses
4: Recommended thtat they should learn about the culture of host nation, and how host nation's government works; required that the refugee learns the general laws of host nation
If they pass all of the required parts, they are welcome to the host nation.

[Right wing humour squad]

It’s bad.

We need to work out a way of measuring differences in culture so we can only allow refugees entrance based upon highly similar cultural values.

[North Ogaden]

Could I just ask that for every response, people indicate whether they have ever lived somewhere outside their country of birth? Because in my view, anyone who hasn't experienced it themselves is patently under-qualified to talk about questions of 'cultural fit' and 'assimilation'. You can't come to a reasonable position if you only know one side of the argument.

Limiting the discussion to an extremely small and likely biased demographic doesn't seem intuitive to a good debate/discussion at all.

[Neu Leonstein]

Either way, what's your point?

You know the answer to that question. But let's just say that, having grown up in Germany in the 1990s, the idea of an anti-immigration eastern European is amusing to me.

American who has lived in Australia for a year. Does that help?

It does, though obviously not as much as if it had been to somewhere that's genuinely different.

Limiting the discussion to an extremely small and likely biased demographic doesn't seem intuitive to a good debate/discussion at all.

Well, first of all, ask yourself why that demographic would be biased.

But aside from that, why should actual experience not be a prerequisite for having one's opinion be taken seriously? Nobody will take my opinion about period pains seriously, because as a biological male I haven't had any and won't have any. Similarly, I don't see the value of someone in some 95%-white medium-sized town in the American midwest making pronouncements on how people of different cultures can't live together.

[Trumptonium1]

Either way, what's your point?

You know the answer to that question. But let's just say that, having grown up in Germany in the 1990s, the idea of an anti-immigration eastern European is amusing to me.

Clearly grew up on the wrong side of Germany.

[Albrenia]

To my mind, Immigration is good. Unlike many, I'd prefer we focus on helping people in need rather than just taking the most skilled and leaving the rest to rot. Naive maybe, but I'd rather my country did the right thing, within reason.

[Ostroeuropa]

To my mind, Immigration is good. Unlike many, I'd prefer we focus on helping people in need rather than just taking the most skilled and leaving the rest to rot. Naive maybe, but I'd rather my country did the right thing, within reason.

This can be done through foreign aid organizations, surely.
Stop just handing the cash to governments and instead set up our own official offices there to handle the cash, which also benefits the nations prestige and image.

[Albrenia]

To my mind, Immigration is good. Unlike many, I'd prefer we focus on helping people in need rather than just taking the most skilled and leaving the rest to rot. Naive maybe, but I'd rather my country did the right thing, within reason.

This can be done through foreign aid organizations, surely.
Stop just handing the cash to governments and instead set up our own official offices there to handle the cash, which also benefits the nations prestige and image.

Not a horrible idea, on the face of it. Might stop a lot of the money falling into the hands of dictators and warlords too... maybe.

[Neu Leonstein]

Clearly grew up on the wrong side of Germany.

It was the side all the eastern Europeans wanted to migrate to and where vans with Polish number plates would pick up all your old household appliances and furniture before the garbage trucks could get to it, and where the local skinheads were complaining about that.

[Windchia]

Wow, i think its actually fine.
-Windchia

[De Almerland]

Immigration is good as long as only people who are willing assimilate and have skills that will benefit the country are allowed.

[Trumptonium1]

Clearly grew up on the wrong side of Germany.

It was the side all the eastern Europeans wanted to migrate to and where vans with Polish number plates would pick up all your old household appliances and furniture before the garbage trucks could get to it, and where the local skinheads were complaining about that.

Then they came back to Breslau to share their experiences of Timbuktu, Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Might as well join in on the fun of pillaging the polyglot boarding house.

Have you figured out why Leipzigers don't share your views yet?

[Baltenstein]

It was the side all the eastern Europeans wanted to migrate to and where vans with Polish number plates would pick up all your old household appliances and furniture before the garbage trucks could get to it, and where the local skinheads were complaining about that.

Then they came back to Breslau to share their experiences of Timbuktu, Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Might as well join in on the fun of pillaging the polyglot boarding house.

Have you figured out why Leipzigers don't share your views yet?

Fun fact: Only 8.5 % of Leipzig's electorate are actually Leipzigers.
Of all the famous Eastern German cities, you just had to pick the most famously left-leaning one.

[Ifreann]

People should be allowed to live in whatever country they want. Telling them they can't because they don't fit into the economic model or because they're different from the locals is a pretty shit thing to do.

[Trumptonium1]

Then they came back to Breslau to share their experiences of Timbuktu, Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Might as well join in on the fun of pillaging the polyglot boarding house.

Have you figured out why Leipzigers don't share your views yet?

Fun fact: Only 8.5 % of Leipzig's electorate are actually Leipzigers.
Of all the famous Eastern German cities, you just had to pick the most famously left-leaning one.

Oh grouping AfD with NPD

Classy.

[United Citizens of North America]

The only way we can slow immigration is to invest in immigrant's home countries and make sure democracies grow in places like Somalia, Syria, Libya, etc. It will definitely take a lot of money, plus a long amount of time, but if some people want their countries to stay the same, then that's their only long-term option.