Folk, please don't sell to Araneidae

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Araneidae is very irritating.

Almost every time I see "1 buyer" it turns out to be this nation, wanting cards for a cent. While it's clear this strategy is successful, its pretty much a walking example of why capitalism needs regulation. The profit and benefit gained is essentially a result of the cost being paid in externalities - the wasted time of thousands of players having to look at pointless buy offers, and other people essentially choosing to give you cards at cost to themselves. Hell, I even did it myself twice because I thought you were seeking particular cards, but now I realise you were spamming the marketplace, and taking advantage of people's good nature.

For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, see here:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ara ... w_trades=1

I'm going to reproduce this wherever I can, and dissuade anyone from selling to this player.

There's two ways to stop dickish behaviour in capitalsm. One is word of mouth, trying to persuade the marketplace to avoid letting dickishness occur. The other is systemic regulation.

I'd be curious to see if word of mouth can work. If not, then it'll be over in a few days anyway.

If it becomes a permanent feature, then we'll need some top down intervention to limit this sort of behaviour.

[USS Monitor]

If it becomes a permanent feature, then we'll need some top down intervention to limit this sort of behaviour.

It has been raised for discussion. You are by no means the only person that has gotten irritated with the spammy 0.01 offers.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I must have missed that discussion.

My broad thoughts here, which I'm sure have been suggested elsewhere:

1) Set minimum trade price equal to junk value.

or

2) Allow an account to have no more than 5 trades offered at any one time.

Both have got their downsides, but either would fix the problem.

[Thornid]

Raising the minimum ask to be the junk value would solve a few problems. It would make puppet trading just a little bit more annoying, and therefore less common. Although whether puppet trading is a bad thing is really up to the individual I suppose. It would also fix a certain bug involving purchasing cards for no cost. Also it just makes sense. The situation reminds me of the old pokemon days when people would ask to trade their super rare pokemon for a literally impossible trade, like a level 1 legendary. It just cluttered everything up and was generally unpleasant to deal with.

[Galiantus III]

Agreed. This has happened to me too, and it's VERY annoying. The best fix I can think of is simply, just don't show that there are buyers for a card if the person making the offer isn't at least offering junk value for it.

[Reorganisieren Reichregierung]

I don't think we should restrict buying or bidding. We have RMB spammers and forum spammers, but we just report them to mods and have them make a verdict. Moderation could just take a look at the cent bid spammers and pass judgment.

[Ru-]

I must have missed that discussion.

My broad thoughts here, which I'm sure have been suggested elsewhere:

1) Set minimum trade price equal to junk value.

or

2) Allow an account to have no more than 5 trades offered at any one time.

Both have got their downsides, but either would fix the problem.

I like 1 much much better then 2, since I'm collecting based on how much i like the flag, so i often place many small offers on commons for 0.02 or 0.03, which is very helpful for other players who don't care about common cards. 2 would kinda make it much harder for me to buy commons and other low-value cards

1 only really wrecks the rampant puppet trading, but there is i think a very strong argument that nations shouldn't be allowed to do this anyway.

[Galiantus III]

I am now making a targeted effort to undermine this guy. I am going to as many of the cards he's offering .01 for and offering half-price for them.

[Minoa]

Araneidae is very irritating.

Almost every time I see "1 buyer" it turns out to be this nation, wanting cards for a cent. While it's clear this strategy is successful, its pretty much a walking example of why capitalism needs regulation. The profit and benefit gained is essentially a result of the cost being paid in externalities - the wasted time of thousands of players having to look at pointless buy offers, and other people essentially choosing to give you cards at cost to themselves. Hell, I even did it myself twice because I thought you were seeking particular cards, but now I realise you were spamming the marketplace, and taking advantage of people's good nature.

For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, see here:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ara ... w_trades=1

I'm going to reproduce this wherever I can, and dissuade anyone from selling to this player.

There's two ways to stop dickish behaviour in capitalsm. One is word of mouth, trying to persuade the marketplace to avoid letting dickishness occur. The other is systemic regulation.

I'd be curious to see if word of mouth can work. If not, then it'll be over in a few days anyway.

If it becomes a permanent feature, then we'll need some top down intervention to limit this sort of behaviour.

I think there are a lot of flaws in the trading card platform. For example, in real life you can donate cards to a friend, even for free. I cannot understand why NationStates neglected that: as a result we had to place token one-penny bids in order to transfer the cards, and sometimes we forget to cancel extra one-penny bids without realising it.

What should happen for the remainder of this mini-game is that nations should be allowed to donate to other players, free of charge: that would maintain the compassion part. I would accept that in exchange for a ban on one-penny bids. However, I cannot speak of this mini-game lasting forever without significant re-tooling.

As a courtesy, I have gone through my trades and cancelled all existing bids, and then start the bidding again with junk-or-above prices.

[Australian rePublic]

Minimum should be below junk, but still, there must be a minium

[The Sakhalinsk Empire]

The real reason people spam offers for 0.01 are to lower the deck value of the person holding them. As long as it's the highest asking price, it'll lower a usually 0.50 card to just 0.01.

This strategy doesn't work anymore as deck value is only the highest buying price when it is equal or higher than the junk price.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I am now making a targeted effort to undermine this guy. I am going to as many of the cards he's offering .01 for and offering half-price for them.

I don't know whether to applaud or not, as offering half-price is still doing what he is doing, but just a little more competitively.

So in my view, you're joining the problem rather than fixing it, even while it's satisfying to see you choosing to undermine him.

[Minoa]

I am now making a targeted effort to undermine this guy. I am going to as many of the cards he's offering .01 for and offering half-price for them.

I don't know whether to applaud or not, as offering half-price is still doing what he is doing, but just a little more competitively.

So in my view, you're joining the problem rather than fixing it, even while it's satisfying to see you choosing to undermine him.

As further courtesy, I have purchased your card for 30.00, so please don't kick my butt.

EXTRA: I did a bit of research into the number of one-penny bids by Araneidae, and it came up to 1,140 instances.

[Galiantus III]

I am now making a targeted effort to undermine this guy. I am going to as many of the cards he's offering .01 for and offering half-price for them.

I don't know whether to applaud or not, as offering half-price is still doing what he is doing, but just a little more competitively.

So in my view, you're joining the problem rather than fixing it, even while it's satisfying to see you choosing to undermine him.

Well these aren't exactly cards I want, and I don't have the money to pay for every single card he's offering for at even junk value. So instead I'm going with a strategy that should be able to compete with his indefinitely, and hopefully put a stop to it. In theory he's already competing against the junk value of the cards themselves, I'm just making that competition all that more obvious. As soon as he realizes what's going on, he'll be forced to raise his offer prices higher than mine, at which point the value in trying to do what he is doing will be all but lost, and I will have achieved my goal.

[Minoa]

I don't know whether to applaud or not, as offering half-price is still doing what he is doing, but just a little more competitively.

So in my view, you're joining the problem rather than fixing it, even while it's satisfying to see you choosing to undermine him.

Well these aren't exactly cards I want, and I don't have the money to pay for every single card he's offering for at even junk value. So instead I'm going with a strategy that should be able to compete with his indefinitely, and hopefully put a stop to it. In theory he's already competing against the junk value of the cards themselves, I'm just making that competition all that more obvious. As soon as he realizes what's going on, he'll be forced to raise his offer prices higher than mine, at which point the value in trying to do what he is doing will be all but lost, and I will have achieved my goal.

I have also attempted to counter Araneidae with similar bids, but I have since withdrawn all of it completely, on ethical grounds, as I felt it would only make the problem a lot worse.

[Wopruthien]

It is very annoying checking the buyers and seeing that very poor 0.01 offer.

If it is just a common card I do usually sell it, but if it's a 0.01 offer which is below junk value I'll junk it rather than sell it to that nation. I do agree though you should only be able to sell a card for the junk price or higher. Will be a bit difficult for players to trade between their nations but it would stop this kind of behaviour.

[Minoa]

It is very annoying checking the buyers and seeing that very poor 0.01 offer.

If it is just a common card I do usually sell it, but if it's a 0.01 offer which is below junk value I'll junk it rather than sell it to that nation. I do agree though you should only be able to sell a card for the junk price or higher. Will be a bit difficult for players to trade between their nations but it would stop this kind of behaviour.

Again, I would accept that in exchange for a "donate to" functionality, so that we don't squash charity and compassion.

[Galiantus III]

Well these aren't exactly cards I want, and I don't have the money to pay for every single card he's offering for at even junk value. So instead I'm going with a strategy that should be able to compete with his indefinitely, and hopefully put a stop to it. In theory he's already competing against the junk value of the cards themselves, I'm just making that competition all that more obvious. As soon as he realizes what's going on, he'll be forced to raise his offer prices higher than mine, at which point the value in trying to do what he is doing will be all but lost, and I will have achieved my goal.

I have also attempted to counter Araneidae with similar bids, but I have since withdrawn all of it completely, on ethical grounds, as I felt it would only make the problem a lot worse.

I've changed my strategy a bit, actually. The real place he's taking advantage of people are on the Epic and Legendary cards where he's the only offer showing. So I'm now only making offers of 0.35 on Epic cards he has an offer up for. Also, any other strategy will take a whole lot of time. I might also start responding to his more recent actions, as that should be easier to keep up with.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Well, you know, I'm not keen on the free market self-regulation being seen as a solution, but I can't really criticise what you're doing there heavily, Galiantus III.

As the guy is a fellow Forest denizen (presumably because the place is the best place to maximise chances of a Legendary random) I've been arguing with him there too, and his primary argument in his defence is that he was highlighting flaws in the system by exploiting them.

Which as I've pointed out, is a seriously messed up way of understanding how morality works, and somewhat less moral than say - highlighting flaws in the system by verbally pointing them out.

Anyone is welcome to visit our RMB to see how this unfolds.

[Harkback Union]

I'm putting up 0.01 offers for cards I want to buy, but cannot yet afford...

[Minoa]

Well, you know, I'm not keen on the free market self-regulation being seen as a solution, but I can't really criticise what you're doing there heavily, Galiantus III.

As the guy is a fellow Forest denizen (presumably because the place is the best place to maximise chances of a Legendary random) I've been arguing with him there too, and his primary argument in his defence is that he was highlighting flaws in the system by exploiting them.

Which as I've pointed out, is a seriously messed up way of understanding how morality works, and somewhat less moral than say - highlighting flaws in the system by verbally pointing them out.

Anyone is welcome to visit our RMB to see how this unfolds.

I have come up with an alternative plan: see https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=30081704. Instructions on request.

[Minoa]

Okay, after thinking through that is what we do:

1. Look up https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... lue_deck=1 and look for any duplicates.
2. Telegram Minoa first, telling her how much money you are willing to donate (1.00 or better is recommended).
3. Minoa will make an offer to you.
4. You buy the card, donating the money offered to Minoa.
5. Minoa will use the donations to buy more non-common and school class cards at face value or slightly above face value.

[Harkback Union]

Anyway, how do you guys know that Araneidae isn't just planning to transfer cards from his own puppets?

[Minoa]

Anyway, how do you guys know that Araneidae isn't just planning to transfer cards from his own puppets?

A significant amount of the player’s one-penny bids were open for as long as 3 days and 19 hours. Minoa’s transfers do not usually take that long.

Archived source: https://web.archive.org/web/20180405120 ... w_trades=1

[Ille-et-Vilaine]

I thought I was the only one who found it annoying. Agree with the advice/sentiment.

What should happen for the remainder of this mini-game is that nations should be allowed to donate to other players, free of charge: that would maintain the compassion part. I would accept that in exchange for a ban on one-penny bids. However, I cannot speak of this mini-game lasting forever without significant re-tooling.

This, or having sell/buy offers time-limited. For instance, offers would only have a validity of 24/36 hours or they'll be removed.