[Shelved] Liberate Arcem (SCUT)

[Westfacto]

And funny how you cherry-pick Nazism and fascism from my belief in freedom of thought. I'd also enable communism, liberalism, conservatism, egalitarianism, socialism, authoritarianism, libertarianism, capitalism, etc. when I believe in freedom of thought. Only when the ideologies that invade other's rights are practiced is when I say no, as it is action, not thought.

I have yet to hear a reason from you, or any other enabler of Nazism, as to why I, a Jewish person, should tolerate an ideology that calls for my denigration and death. Or why I should tolerate the people who cheerlead an ideology that saw my family murdered in death camps.

If you wish to partake in civil society? You need to accept some basic truths. The belief that some humans are “sub-human” and unworthy of equality runs counter to a core tenant of civil society and should be shunned.

I absolutely hate Nazis, we can both agree on that.

The Nazi regions are gross and irritating but they have every right to believe in an ideology, even if you disagree with it.
This is the fault of freedom of expression, which is the freedom to be offensive. Hitler's regime was built on censorship and intimidation, he killed off political opposition, journalists, and infiltrated the state media. If the Security Council starts eliminating groups they don't like, what is stopping them from attacking other minority regions (which is what we are seeing by La Navasse, who is accusing regions he/she doesn't like as fascist/Nazi)?

By shutting down regions that we disagree with on an ideological basis, we are doing exactly what other totalitarian and fascist countries have done for centuries.

I'm not asking you to tolerate anything.

You can go write up a condemnation, report abusive and harmful behavior, ignore people through the telegram settings, or add a chrome extension that blocks certain webpages that might have offensive behavior, etc.

There are many solutions to this problem, but censorship isn't one of them.

[Kaboomlandia]

Either way, the target region isn't Nazi or Fascist, so I'm not sure what all the kerfuffle is about here.

[Prydania]

I have yet to hear a reason from you, or any other enabler of Nazism, as to why I, a Jewish person, should tolerate an ideology that calls for my denigration and death. Or why I should tolerate the people who cheerlead an ideology that saw my family murdered in death camps.

If you wish to partake in civil society? You need to accept some basic truths. The belief that some humans are “sub-human” and unworthy of equality runs counter to a core tenant of civil society and should be shunned.

I absolutely hate Nazis, we can both agree on that.

The Nazi regions are gross and irritating but they have every right to believe in an ideology, even if you disagree with it.
This is the fault of freedom of expression, which is the freedom to be offensive. Hitler's regime was built on censorship and intimidation...If the Security Council starts eliminating groups they don't like, what is stopping them from attacking other minority regions (which is what we are seeing by La Navasse, who is accusing regions he/she doesn't like as fascist/Nazi)?
By shutting down regions that we disagree with on an ideological basis, we are doing exactly what other totalitarian and fascist countries have done for centuries.

Equating Nazism with an effort to stamp out Nazism is a silly argument.
There's something called the paradox of tolerance. Absolute tolerance of all opinions leads to the emergence and strengthening of intolerant ideas that seek to snuff tolerance itself out. Thus a society that values tolerance for all risks destroying itself if it embraces absolute tolerance.

If a civil society is, in fact, keen on remaining an open and free society? It paradoxically has to take a firm a stand against those ideologies that are hostile to the very concept of civil society.
Yet there seems to be this belief that if we take a stand against Nazis then OH NO THE PRO LIFERS MIGHT BE NEXT! OR THE GENERALLY CONSERVATIVE REGIONS! OH THE HUMANITY!

To which I say "no." How many times does LN have to throw "Liberate Arcem" against the wall only to fail for it to register that many, many people who supported Liberate KREICH and Liberate Nazi Europa are not supporting this? Myself included.
Taking a firm stand against fascism and Nazism is not the equivalent of Nazism itself. It is, in fact, a prudent step a healthy society that values Enlightenment ideals will adopt to insure intolerant ideas do not threaten its core tenant of tolerance. Again. This resolution is proof of that. I will happily support bashing the fash, but I don't support punishing SCUT due to it being decidedly not fascist.

I'm not asking you to tolerate anything.

You can go write up a condemnation, report abusive and harmful behavior, ignore people through the telegram settings, or add a chrome extension that blocks certain webpages that might have offensive behavior, etc.

"Racism" in and of itself is not banned here at a mod/admin level. Obviously certain aspects of Nazism and fascism are banned, but it's certainly not enough to stop Nazi regions from thriving.
As for ignoring them? Sorry, no. When someone tells me I'm sub-human scum unworthy of basic human dignity or life? I will not ignore it. I'll fight back.
And as for condemnations? They're useless. The whole reason offensive liberarions (LN's term "neoliberations" sucks) even exists is because condemnations are next to useless unless you want to award a badge of honour.

So I'm sure in your mind you're not asking me to tolerate anything.
From my perspective though? Yeah, you kinda are. I've been playing NS on and off for 12 years. It's safe to say I enjoy a lot about this game, or I wouldn't keep coming back. And that's cool. It's part of my life, that's fine. I'm not keen, however, on someone telling me I need to tolerate sharing that space with people who literally wish me to be dead on account of my ethnicity.
This is a very straightforward situation, really. Oppose those who would denigrate and harm me and stand up for my own sense of dignity and self-worth. Because history has proven people like me cannot passively expect others to act on our behalf.
Already here I see you trying to tell me it's ok to oppose those would do me harm, so long as I don't do anything that's actually useful.

There are many solutions to this problem, but censorship isn't one of them

This isn't censorship. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. The NS community using liberations offensively against Nazi and facist regions is simply a case of Nazis within the game having to face consequences for their actions.

Either way, the target region isn't Nazi or Fascist, so I'm not sure what all the kerfuffle is about here.

People who cheer-lead for Nazis to have their safespaces are lacking in the ability to contextualize the current resolution.

Yes, Liberate Arcem is a terrible piece of legislation. No, SCUT is not fascist or Nazi-esque in any way, shape, or form. And yeah. LN should feel a deep sense of shame for failing to let this just die.

This circus, however, does not invalidate actually using game game mechanics to effectively target actual Nazi and fascist regions.

[Westfacto]

"Equating Nazism with an effort to stamp out Nazism is a silly argument.
There's something called the paradox of tolerance. Absolute tolerance of all opinions leads to the emergence and strengthening of intolerant ideas that seek to snuff tolerance itself out. Thus a society that values tolerance for all risks destroying itself if it embraces absolute tolerance."

There is also another theory called the Streisand effect. When you attempt to censor or disband a community, it often times grows and becomes more radical. The best way to defeat Nazi regions is to let the community die overtime as ex-Nazis become less radicalize and adapt back to normal society.

"Yet there seems to be this belief that if we take a stand against Nazis then OH NO THE PRO LIFERS MIGHT BE NEXT! OR THE GENERALLY CONSERVATIVE REGIONS! OH THE HUMANITY!"

Nowhere did I say "Conservative" regions would suffer (if anything they would probably attack smaller left regions), but smaller regions that house an extreme ideology such as communism, totalitarian, fascism, or theological region.

"To which I say "no." How many times does LN have to throw "Liberate Arcem" against the wall only to fail for it to register that many, many people who supported Liberate KREICH and Liberate Nazi Europa are not supporting this? Myself included.
Taking a firm stand against fascism and Nazism is not the equivalent of Nazism itself. It is, in fact, a prudent step a healthy society that values Enlightenment ideals will adopt to insure intolerant ideas do not threaten its core tenant of tolerance. Again. This resolution is proof of that. I will happily support bashing the fash, but I don't support punishing SCUT due to it being decidedly not fascist. "

Okay, if you look at recent events within the "censorship" happening to the so-called "AltRight" on Twitter or Facebook, you can see a migration to sites like Gab, Voat, 4Chan (insanely toxic), etc. What we could have done is just wait until these communities die out by themselves. Instead we have gave them fuel to expand their conspiracies and create hysteria which ends up creating radicalism.

"So I'm sure in your mind you're not asking me to tolerate anything.
From my perspective though? Yeah, you kinda are. I've been playing NS on and off for 12 years. It's safe to say I enjoy a lot about this game, or I wouldn't keep coming back. And that's cool. It's part of my life, that's fine. I'm not keen, however, on someone telling me I need to tolerate sharing that space with people who literally wish me to be dead on account of my ethnicity.
This is a very straightforward situation, really. Oppose those who would denigrate and harm me and stand up for my own sense of dignity and self-worth. Because history has proven people like me cannot passively expect others to act on our behalf.
Already here I see you trying to tell me it's ok to oppose those would do me harm, so long as I don't do anything that's actually useful."

Meh, okay good point.

"This isn't censorship. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. The NS community using liberations offensively against Nazi and facist regions is simply a case of Nazis within the game having to face consequences for their actions."

The Security Council wasn't suppose to have this power, and it is an example of abusing a liberation resolution.

My main concern (which is starting to occur) is that any minority region that is unpopular due to an ideological difference would be targeted and attacked by the SC.

EDIT: Added boxes, sorry.

[Imperium Anglorum]

The formatting above is so atrocious I literally don't know what are quotes and what are replies. Mate. Use boxes.

[Prydania]

The Security Council wasn't suppose to have this power, and it is an abuse of a liberation resolution.

I disagree. The SC was always supposed to be weaponized. Condemnations were meant to the weapons. It just turned out that the weapons were useless, because they didn't effect GP. So they became badges of honour.
The SC found a way around that by finding a new weapon. They simply replaced one calibre for another after discovering the former was ineffective.

My main concern (which is starting to occur) is that any minority region that is unpopular due to an ideological difference would be targeted and attacked by the SC.

The only thing coming down hard on fascist and Nazi regions proves is that the vast majority of the NS userbase doesn't like fascists or Nazis. This is why I see the slippery slop argument as inherently lacking. If I set out to offensively liberate a Nazi region? Well my hypothetical success won't start a slippery slope because I only set out to attack Nazi regions. I'm not going suddenly go after a pro life region because that was never my intent. The slippery slope only happens if the person acting intends to go down that slope.
Now granted. LN seems intent to ride the slippy slope to its inevitable conclusion. And I'll be the first to admit, and yell at him, about how he's acted in bad faith throughout all of this.

With the current resolution? We've seen LN submit Liberate Arcem three times. And it's failed to reach quorum each time. That, to me, is very telling.
It tells me that I'm not alone. That there are others like me who supported liberating KReich and Nazi Europa who are not ok with supporting the liberation of SCUT's capital. That disproves the slippery slope, as it indicates that enough of us who were willing to bash the fash were serious when we said we weren't eager to wield this tactic against others.

I'm relatively confident that LN's Liberate Arcem won't get to quorum. I'm even more confident that if it somehow did? It would get crushed on the voting floor. For all of the above-mentioned reasons.

[North Saitama]

Well North Saitama, congrats. Like everyone else who holds your naive opinion on this matter? You’ve failed to explain to me why I should tolerate an ideology that calls for my denigration and death.

You’ve got platitudes a plenty, but nothing to address my primary point. Why should I extend tolerance to those that are intolerant, and tolerate people who wish me harm?

The reason why this has to be repeated is because you don't get it. Yet, apparently, we are the naive ones....

Nobody is asking you to think Nazism or Fascism are acceptable, just to respect freedom of expression. The problem with punishing ideologies, regardless of the ideology, is that you are punishing a subjective point of view. At that point, you are advocating punishing them for not liking you for any reason. Not for acting upon their hatred of you, and actually doing harm to you (which is punishable by law, anyway), but merely hating you.

And this is coming from someone of Slovak descent, mind you. By your logic, I should be calling for Communist regions to, additionally, be punished. However, I am not; as much as I hate Communism and Nazism, I prefer to either ignore them, or, at best, debate them.

[Gagala]

So you call FGGR fascist for defending a raider region?
I helped defend it too. Draft a Liberate Order of the Southern North, sprinkle some libel here and there 'bout how we are fascists like last year, and I get free recruitment. Deal?

Also, SCUT hardly has a prescence in this thread.

FGGR's region itself has fascist elements, not to mention they are a close ally with KR, in the same manner as THRB.

Jesus I’m starting to sound like a broken record now but my question is still not being answered. How is Bunicken fascist? Show me proof, half of our parliament is elected, there is a sizable powerful jewish and Islamic presence, we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. So either you know something I haven’t grasped in my two years here, or you are lying to further your own agenda

[Kaboomlandia]

Navasse hasn't posted on this in two days. Can we let it die?

[New Legland]

I think La Navasse either just doesn't care anymore or has finally given up on this.

[La Navasse]

I find no reason to respond.

[Indo-Malaysia]

I find no reason to respond.

To criticism and evidence?

Familiar.

[Kaboomlandia]

I find no reason to respond.

You're certainly allowed to do that. Not that it's going to earn you any votes.

[La Navasse]

Liberate Arcem's major opposition force, unfavorable support from several notable Delegates, and conflicting objectives with my region, The East Pacific, have all been major factors in leading me to Shelve this proposal, and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

[North Saitama]

Liberate Arcem's major opposition force, unfavorable support from several notable Delegates, and conflicting objectives with my region, The East Pacific, have all been major factors in leading me to Shelve this proposal, and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

Good choice.

[Razzle Dazzle]

and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

What does this mean? Are you planning on campaigning as somebody else?

[Indo-Malaysia]

and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

What does this mean? Are you planning on campaigning as somebody else?

We know most of his puppets anyway. He'll probably use one of those Kalinin ones.

[La Navasse]

and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

What does this mean? Are you planning on campaigning as somebody else?

There is a remote possibility, far off into the future, but likely not.

[Bedetopia]

and end any continued campaigning and promotion of this proposal as La Navasse.

What does this mean? Are you planning on campaigning as somebody else?

Did you know? He has a puppet that's literally called "The Rejected Realms", which he used to deceitfully campaign before.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

What does this mean? Are you planning on campaigning as somebody else?

Did you know? He has a puppet that's literally called "The Rejected Realms", which he used to deceitfully campaign before.

Yeah, he threw his support on our former delegate when Catalyse challenged, campaigned against her, while he wasn't even a citizen.