[ON HOLD] Repeal "Liberate KAISERREICH"

[Hemuraile]

Repeal "Liberate KAISERREICH"
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#245 | Proposed by: Hemuraile

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The Security Council,

Believing that action against regions shall only be taken based upon conclusive evidence;

Appalled by SC#245's use of misleading arguments (use of Nazi propaganda, swastikas, hate speech) based on inconclusive, fallacious, cherry-picked and misinterpreted evidence presented during its drafting stages;

Noting that SC#245 uses Nazism as a reason against KAISERREICH and as a warning against other Nazi and Fascist regions;

Reaffirming the Council's position, as in SC#38, that regional ideology is not valid reasoning for this body to take action;

Referencing two KAISERREICH regional polls wherein a total of only five nations, with two having since collapsed, identified with Fascism or Nazism, as opposed to a predominately monarchial regional population of 250+ nations.

Disturbed by the use of a Liberation as a weapon to open up and potentially destroy regions with differing views and opinions, contrary to a Liberation's traditional role as a tool of peace and freedom and in counteraction of such regional destruction and;

Recalling SC#132, which considered this use of Liberation as "misusing a Liberation to open up a region to attack from outside forces,";

Believing that resolutions like SC#245 only serve to make the target region's founder, and other regions' founders, more cautious in their actions as to not risk their region's safety and therefore, is counterproductive;

Hereby repeals SC#245 "Liberate KAISERREICH".

Repeal "Liberate KAISERREICH" (Mar. 19 - Mar. 23)
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#245 | Proposed by: Hemuraile

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The Security Council,


Believing that action against regions shall only be taken based upon conclusive evidence;

Appalled by SC#245's use of misleading arguments (use of Nazi propaganda, swastikas, hate speech) based on inconclusive, fallacious, cherry-picked and misinterpreted evidence presented during its drafting stages;

Noting that SC#245 uses Nazism as a reason against KAISERREICH and as a warning against "other Nazi and Fascist regions";

Reaffirming the Council's position, as in SC#38, that regional ideology is not valid reasoning for this body to take action;

Disturbed by the use of Liberation as a threat and to allow for the potential invasion of KAISERREICH, an action in which Liberations have been traditionally passed to counteract;

Recalling SC#132, which considered this use of Liberation as "misusing a Liberation to open up a region to attack from outside forces,";

Believing that resolutions like SC#245 only serve to make the target region's founder, and other regions' founders, more cautious in their actions as to not risk their region's safety and therefore, is counterproductive;

Hereby repeals SC#245 "Liberate KAISERREICH".

If you need some more information, you can read the Liberate KAISERREICH thread, read my dispatch: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=990542, or engage in the battlefield below.

Resolutions mentioned:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_pa ... /council=2 SC#38
https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_pa ... /council=2 SC#132

Polls mentioned:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=114692
https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=76144

[Phydios]

Support. Attacking regions just because they're unpopular may be how democracy works, but it's a very bad path to go down unless you like echo chambers. (And neither chamber of the WA is democratic anyway.) There's a reason why the GA doesn't allow resolutions that blanket-ban an ideology.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Against. GLHF convincing the GCR dels.

[Hemuraile]

Against. GLHF convincing the GCR dels.

Thanks.

[Lenlyvit]

Agaibst, obviously......

[Fratt]

Insta-repealing a resolution that has passed with such a margin would be very difficult.
Since Kaiserreich is unlikely to be affected by the resolution anytime soon (unless the topic somehow baits Scansinia & co. into deletion), however, you could afford to wait a very a long time before attempting it.

Voter enthusiasm will vanish when they realise the Liberation has done zilch to eradicate KR, and if "Liberate Nazi Europe" could be repealed within a year of its passing I am sure this one can as well, eventually.

[Willania Imperium]

Against. The Liberation was a fine piece of proposition and shouldn’t be removed.

[Oakrugia]

Against. Liberating KR was just fine right now.

[Alcohol-Related Misconduct]

Don't bother trying to claim there was no evidence for KAISERREICH being Nazi's, that's not very convincing. This repeal should be based solely on how ideological purging is unlawful, and persecuting radicals for their beliefs only serves to further radicalise more people.

[Hemuraile]

Don't bother trying to claim there was no evidence for KAISERREICH being Nazi's, that's not very convincing. This repeal should be based solely on how ideological purging is unlawful, and persecuting radicals for their beliefs only serves to further radicalise more people.

Except there was no real evidence that KAISERREICH are Nazis. The "Nazi propaganda" was edited with no Nazi symbolism in KR and is very misleading. The swastika, although disturbing, was only used briefly on an unregulated forum years ago, and what the people said on their Discord were cherry-picked/taken without context/are jokes (pretty bad ones in my opinion). And even then, why is the entire region blamed and liberated based on what some edgy people in their region said?

Against. Liberating KR was just fine right now.

Against. The Liberation was a fine piece of proposition and shouldn’t be removed.

How is it fine?

Insta-repealing a resolution that has passed with such a margin would be very difficult.
Since Kaiserreich is unlikely to be affected by the resolution anytime soon (unless the topic somehow baits Scansinia & co. into deletion), however, you could afford to wait a very a long time before attempting it.

Voter enthusiasm will vanish when they realise the Liberation has done zilch to eradicate KR, and if "Liberate Nazi Europe" could be repealed within a year of its passing I am sure this one can as well, eventually.

Thanks for the advice, Fratt.

[Cedoria]

Except there was no real evidence that KAISERREICH are Nazis. The "Nazi propaganda" was edited with no Nazi symbolism in KR and is very misleading. The swastika, although disturbing, was only used briefly on an unregulated forum years ago, and what the people said on their Discord were cherry-picked/taken without context/are jokes (pretty bad ones in my opinion). And even then, why is the entire region blamed and liberated based on what some edgy people in their region said?

I can help there. Because KAISERREICH has evidently decided that it is a place where said people can peddle their, as you put it, edgy, stuff without consequence. A regional government that was against Nazism would take some measure of action against those responsible for these types of activities, even if it is a small minority. What has KR done? Absolutely nothing.

As far as I am concerned, whether they are Nazis or merely enabling and providing a platform for Nazis is a distinction that is so miniscule in Gameplay terms that it's not relevant to make. Regardless of which is true, Nazis can and do operate under KR's banner, with no consequence or penalty for their activities by the regional leadership. Even if we accept your claim as true, that still makes them Nazi enablers and collaborators, rather than Nazis, which is not much of a jump up in moral terms.

[Alcohol-Related Misconduct]

As far as I am concerned, whether they are Nazis or merely enabling and providing a platform for Nazis is a distinction that is so miniscule in Gameplay terms that it's not relevant to make. Regardless of which is true, Nazis can and do operate under KR's banner, with no consequence or penalty for their activities by the regional leadership. Even if we accept your claim as true, that still makes them Nazi enablers and collaborators, rather than Nazis, which is not much of a jump up in moral terms.

So should your region be "liberated" because it might enable or harbour Stalinists?

[Arotania]

Except there was no real evidence that KAISERREICH are Nazis. The "Nazi propaganda" was edited with no Nazi symbolism in KR and is very misleading.

No, the 'defence' in your dispatch you copied from CAR is misleading. Merely erasing swastikas from Nazi propaganda doesn't magically erase all the remaining context. 'Hochfinanz' for example absolutely is a dogwhistle for Jews. Also KR's obsession with Communisms is rather perplexing. Why those propaganda posters depicting Soviet imagery and the Red Army? They should be arguing against Socialism and Social Democracy and be wary of Catholicism if they wanted to RP the Kaiserreich era. Yet here they are, handing out orders for the war that started in 1939.

Also, quite frankly, 'It's just a joke bro!' doesn't cut it as an excuse for laughing about the industrialized genocide of millions of people.

[Blood Wine]

Never gonna happen, might as well give up

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Never gonna happen, might as well give up

^ This

[Cedoria]

So should your region be "liberated" because it might enable or harbour Stalinists?

You can try, but since it demonstrably does neither of those things, I don't think it'd work. You'd be hard-pressed naming a single Stalinist in my region, hell, I would be, and I know how most of the region thinks on these subjects.

Also, this rests on the assumption that Stalinism and Nazism are morally equivalent. I wouldn't say that's the case (and I'm a well-known Stalin hater.)

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

Full support. While I supported leaving Kaiserreich alone from the start, this has to be one of the strongest arguments I’ve seen for this.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Full support. While I supported leaving Kaiserreich alone from the start, this has to be one of the strongest arguments I’ve seen for this.

What other arguments have you seen? I’d like to know. Whats your plan for getting this past the GCR dellies?

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Against lol.

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

Full support. While I supported leaving Kaiserreich alone from the start, this has to be one of the strongest arguments I’ve seen for this.

What other arguments have you seen? I’d like to know. Whats your plan for getting this past the GCR dellies?

Unlike others, which were stuffed with meta arguments, this one directly attacks and highlights the false labeling of Nazism, and cites other SC resolutions.

[Ovgid]

I support this repeal.

[Central Asian Republics]

Merely erasing swastikas from Nazi propaganda doesn't magically erase all the remaining context.

Except it's not just swastikas that were removed, it was pretty much anything that promoted Nazi ideology.

'Hochfinanz' for example absolutely is a dogwhistle for Jews.

You're the only one here insinuating that all Jews are bankers, dogwhistling and intent are inherently very difficult to prove.

Also KR's obsession with Communisms is rather perplexing. Why those propaganda posters depicting Soviet imagery and the Red Army?

Do you really think the highly conservative German Empire would be fond of Communism?

They should be arguing against Socialism and Social Democracy and be wary of Catholicism if they wanted to RP the Kaiserreich era. Yet here they are, handing out orders for the war that started in 1939.

The basis for the welfare system Germany has today was thanks to Bismark and his social reforms. Social Democracy is hardly a threat.

Also, quite frankly, 'It's just a joke bro!' doesn't cut it as an excuse for laughing about the industrialized genocide of millions of people.

You can say that when they actually start a genocide or do something to objectively hurt someone, but until then, "it's just a joke bro" is a valid excuse, a poorly thought-out one, but still completely valid.
Also, what do you expect KR to do, publicly shame the few people that said some mean things on a discord server?

[Central Asian Republics]

Noting that SC#245 uses Nazism as a reason against KAISERREICH and as a warning against "other Nazi and Fascist regions";

I would add to that by saying that the Liberation was used to intimidate political opponents.

Reaffirming the Council's position, as in SC#38, that regional ideology is not valid reasoning for this body to take action;

Disturbed by the use of Liberation as a threat and to allow for the potential invasion of KAISERREICH, an action in which Liberations have been traditionally passed to counteract;

Recalling SC#132, which considered this use of Liberation as "misusing a Liberation to open up a region to attack from outside forces,";

I'm not really a big fan of the WA proposal format, but if possible, try and condense the previous precedents set by SC#132 and SC#38 into one sentence if necessary. Even removing the quotes all together and just getting to the point would do nicely.

Believing that resolutions like SC#245 only serve to make the target region's founder, and other regions' founders, more cautious in their actions as to not risk their region's safety and therefore, is counterproductive;

I would replace that with something along the lines of "Shocked by the use of a Liberation as a weapon to potentially destroy regions with differing views and opinions, contrary to a Liberation's traditional role as a tool of peace and freedom."

[Greater Liverpool]

Support.

[Routcher]

I support this repeal, although I think the repeal would benefit from mentioning that KR is a MONARCHIST REGION, with only 3 polled members claiming to support National Socialism, while over 20 polled members preferred monarchy, and even Libertarian was polling higher than National Socialism. It is evident that the original proposal only passed because most members of the World Assembly are too worried about feel-good witch-hunts to bother doing a lick of research. You have my full support.