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Iceland To Ban Male Circumcision

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Costa Fierro
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Iceland To Ban Male Circumcision

Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:19 pm

Finally some good news:

Iceland is poised to become the first European country to outlaw male circumcision amid signs that the ritual common to both Judaism and Islam may be a new battleground over religious freedom.

A bill currently before the Icelandic parliament proposes a penalty of up to six years in prison for anyone carrying out a circumcision other than for medical reasons. Critics say the move, which has sparked alarm among religious leaders across Europe, would make life for Jews and Muslims in Iceland unsustainable.

One in three men globally is thought to be circumcised, the vast majority for religious or cultural reasons. Many Jews and Muslims fear the issue of circumcision could become a proxy for antisemitism and Islamophobia, pointing to similar tensions over religious dress and the ritual slaughter of animals for meat.

Muslim and Jewish leaders attacked the proposal, while Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the Catholic Church in the European Union, said the bill was a “dangerous attack” on religious freedom. “The criminalisation of circumcision is a very grave measure that raises deep concern.”

The Icelandic bill says the circumcision of young boys violates their rights and is incompatible with the United Nations convention on the rights of the child. It draws a parallel with female genital mutilation, already outlawed in most European countries.


And here I thought the Icelandic government only pandered to feminists. I am pleasantly surprised. I hope they do pass it and extend the right of bodily sovereignty to young boys who for no legitimate non-medical reasons have their genitalia mutilated against their will. Hopefully this sparks a wave of finally positive change for the rights of men and boys not only across Europe, but across the world.

Edit: Apparently we have to discuss whether or not this ban is a good idea even if the benefits of this should be self evident. So, NSG, is this ban good for boys? Does it unnecessarily discriminate against Jews and Muslims in Iceland?
Last edited by Costa Fierro on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:22 pm

And what would you discuss, hmmm?
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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:32 pm

It's not good news when a nation violates religious freedom. Are they aware of the religious significance of circumcision for Judaism?
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:35 pm

Hakons wrote:It's not good news when a nation violates religious freedom. Are they aware of the religious significance of circumcision for Judaism?


They are aware of it's significance for religious communities. However they believe that religious tolerance should not supersede the rights of the child. Which I agree with. The law allows for boys to have circumcisions once they reach an age where they can understand what is involved.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:38 pm

Some will say it violates religious freedom, but personally I'd say the practice violates the bodily autonomy of the most vulnerable in society. Sure, if an adult wants a circumcision, they can have it. However, almost always it is inflicted on infants who don't get a choice. Good for Iceland.
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:39 pm

"Unsustainable" is a very interesting word choice. It implies that Judiasm and Islam will completely fall apart and cease to exist if they are no longer able to mutilate infants. That seems like something of a stretch. And anyways, even if it's true, do we really want religions that require infant mutilation?
Last edited by Olthar on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Hakons wrote:It's not good news when a nation violates religious freedom. Are they aware of the religious significance of circumcision for Judaism?


They are aware of it's significance for religious communities. However they believe that religious tolerance should not supersede the rights of the child. Which I agree with. The law allows for boys to have circumcisions once they reach an age where they can understand what is involved.


Adult circumcision is more painful and carries a higher risk of infection. Regardless, circumcision is how Jews show their covenant with God. The Icelandic authorities might as well ban kippas while their at it.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm

Well, it is the body of the male infant that's being irrecoverably altered.

I'd say it should be his choice if he wants it.
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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:42 pm

Olthar wrote:"Unsustainable" is a very interesting word choice. It implies that Judiasm and Islam will completely fall apart and cease to exist if they are no longer able to mutilate infants. That seems like something of a stretch. And anyways, even if it's true, do we really want religions that require infant mutilation?


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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 pm

Hakons wrote:Adult circumcision is more painful and carries a higher risk of infection.

Well, that's the risk of unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

Regardless, circumcision is how Jews show their covenant with God.

Wouldn't it mean more for someone to choose that covenant rather than have it forced upon them?

The Icelandic authorities might as well ban kippas while their at it.

As far as I'm aware, kippahs don't mutilate infants.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 pm

Hakons wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
They are aware of it's significance for religious communities. However they believe that religious tolerance should not supersede the rights of the child. Which I agree with. The law allows for boys to have circumcisions once they reach an age where they can understand what is involved.


Adult circumcision is more painful and carries a higher risk of infection. Regardless, circumcision is how Jews show their covenant with God. The Icelandic authorities might as well ban kippas while their at it.


No, this is a ban on genital mutilation that brings legislation in line with the already existent ban on female genital mutilation. Adult circumcisions can be carried out for medical reasons, and religious circumcisions can be carried out at adolescence if the boy is old enough to understand what's involved.

"Do we really want Jews around?"


I don't believe this is what Iceland's government is saying at all.
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Skippityboobopistan
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Postby Skippityboobopistan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 pm

Maybe make an exception for religious communities like Jews and Muslims?

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Postby Annihilators of Chan Island » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:46 pm

Hakons wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
They are aware of it's significance for religious communities. However they believe that religious tolerance should not supersede the rights of the child. Which I agree with. The law allows for boys to have circumcisions once they reach an age where they can understand what is involved.


Adult circumcision is more painful and carries a higher risk of infection. Regardless, circumcision is how Jews show their covenant with God. The Icelandic authorities might as well ban kippas while their at it.


Surely, an adult Jew who wants to show their covenant with God can choose to undergo the process? What if the infant grows up to not want to be Jewish? Why should a baby be forced to have their privates mutilated?
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:47 pm

Skippityboobopistan wrote:Maybe make an exception for religious communities like Jews and Muslims?


No, otherwise it defeats the point of the legislation. It's not supposed to grant exceptions for religious communities, it's supposed to ban all non-medical or non-consensual male circumcisions.
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:48 pm

Skippityboobopistan wrote:Maybe make an exception for religious communities like Jews and Muslims?

Since they're the only ones doing it, anyways, what would be the point of the ban in the first place?
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Postby Skippityboobopistan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:48 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Skippityboobopistan wrote:Maybe make an exception for religious communities like Jews and Muslims?


No, otherwise it defeats the point of the legislation. It's not supposed to grant exceptions for religious communities, it's supposed to ban all non-medical or non-consensual male circumcisions.

Fair enough.

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Postby Skippityboobopistan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm

Olthar wrote:
Skippityboobopistan wrote:Maybe make an exception for religious communities like Jews and Muslims?

Since they're the only ones doing it, anyways, what would be the point of the ban in the first place?

A decent amount of Christians get circumcised as well. I just don't think it's as important as it is in Judaism or Islam.
Last edited by Skippityboobopistan on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sovaal » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm

Eh. I’ve been circumcised, have hardly missed out on life so far (although haven had much use in that field either, so...).

Still, think that to be circumcised or not should be the choice of the individual.
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:51 pm

Skippityboobopistan wrote:
Olthar wrote:Since they're the only ones doing it, anyways, what would be the point of the ban in the first place?

A decent amount of Christians get circumcised as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that Christians fall under the category of "religious community."
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Postby Qroma » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:52 pm

Damn, you all say mutilation as if the babies are literally getting their dicks cut off.

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Postby Skippityboobopistan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:52 pm

Olthar wrote:
Skippityboobopistan wrote:A decent amount of Christians get circumcised as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that Christians fall under the category of "religious community."

Yes, but it's not as much as a tradition as in Judaism or Islam. With the majority of Christians, it's more of a "well I got circumcised, he should too".
Last edited by Skippityboobopistan on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sovaal » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Olthar wrote:
Skippityboobopistan wrote:A decent amount of Christians get circumcised as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that Christians fall under the category of "religious community."

In the West they tend to make up such a large portion of the population that to make an exception for them you might as well not even bother with the law.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Skippityboobopistan wrote:
Olthar wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that Christians fall under the category of "religious community."

Yes, but it's not as much as a tradition as in Judaism or Islam. With Christians, it's more of a "well I got circumcised, he should too".

That sounds exactly like how traditions work.
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Postby Guardians of the Holy Bowling Alley » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:53 pm

For the sake of accuracy, this would not only upset the Jews and Muslims, but also many Christians. I, coming from a long line of Southern Baptists, was also circumcised at birth, though for purely symbolic purposes, us Baptists don't believe its necessary for salvation. Nevertheless, Jews (I don't know much about Islam, so I can't speak for them) were commanded to circumcise their children by God a certain number of days after their birth. To blatantly disobey Him in such a fashion would be to spit in His face and, in the eyes of Jews at least, seriously endanger their and their children's right to go to Heaven.

Quite frankly, as a Christian and supporter of religious freedom, I think it is ridiculous that this is even on the table.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:54 pm

Qroma wrote:Damn, you all say mutilation as if the babies are literally getting their dicks cut off.


Because they are literally getting a part of their dick cut off so... yes.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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