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Beta 006: Lifespan

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[violet]
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Beta 006: Lifespan

Postby [violet] » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Beta 006: Lifespan

Proposed Change: Major reworking of lifespan modeling. Less important: the environment, political corruption, and citizen niceness. More important: citizen health, economic strength, poor incomes, and government spending on health and welfare. Executing the elderly has less effect in nations where citizens rarely reach 65+ anyway. Brand new, ordinary-ish nations have lifespans in the high 60s rather than low 60s.
Last edited by [violet] on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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He Qixin
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Founded: Aug 28, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby He Qixin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:43 pm

I support this. *smiles as citizens are about to have an average lifespan of more than 80 years*
Last edited by He Qixin on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:45 am

Verily in favour of.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:48 am

[violet] wrote:Beta 006: Lifespan

Proposed Change: Major reworking of lifespan modeling. Less important: the environment, political corruption, and citizen niceness. More important: citizen health, economic strength, poor incomes, and government spending on health and welfare.

Shouldn't the level of charitable spending be a factor there, as well? I'm not sure how you'd calculate that, though, I admit... Maybe, at least in part, have it (as in various RL cultures) increasing with Religiousness?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
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Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:34 am

Bears Armed wrote:Shouldn't the level of charitable spending be a factor there, as well? I'm not sure how you'd calculate that, though, I admit... Maybe, at least in part, have it (as in various RL cultures) increasing with Religiousness?
Compassion would be the logical stat for how much your citizens contribute to charity. [violet] said the calculation is already counting Niceness, which is close enough, although it was counted under the "less important" column.

That said, even charity isn't strictly necessary. Commercial healthcare could be fine if your citizens are rich enough to afford it. Which is where the economic strength and poor income factors come in.

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Land Without Shrimp
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Postby Land Without Shrimp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:56 pm

Grudgingly in favour of this. I've always wondered why my Lifespan was so high when my health is so abysmal. Testing this out on my nation gives the somewhat expected precipitous drop.

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Pencil Sharpeners 2
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Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:14 pm

Looks good to me. From the nations I've tried out there are going to be some major changes to the census rankings for lifespan and development. Most of my nations exhibit fairly small changes of just a few years, except this one which rises from 24 up to 90, surely one of the biggest changes of any nation?

Also, not sure if this is a bug, or just as a result of some rescaling, but Pinkiopia sees substantial increases in both lifespan and death rate.
Last edited by Pencil Sharpeners 2 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Koem Kab
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Postby Koem Kab » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:07 pm

Pretty good change, as many of my nations have high lifespans now, just don't take 3 months like last time, ok?

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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:34 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:... Also, not sure if this is a bug, or just as a result of some rescaling, but Pinkiopia sees substantial increases in both lifespan and death rate.


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Last edited by The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom on Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:40 pm

Holy cow. This would drop my lifespan to 27.47 years :unsure:

I'd be okay with it though.

Although I don't think we should lower the impact the environment has on citizen health. The importance of a good environment to a healthier populace is especially true in the real world, and ought to be on NS.

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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:47 pm

Vovodoco wrote:... Although I don't think we should lower the impact the environment has on citizen health. The importance of a good environment to a healthier populace is especially true in the real world, and ought to be on NS.


In the real world we don't sleep in latrines either. NS treats it as if we'll all chock to death if a city park gets bulldozed over, too unrealistic.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:52 pm

The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom wrote:
Vovodoco wrote:... Although I don't think we should lower the impact the environment has on citizen health. The importance of a good environment to a healthier populace is especially true in the real world, and ought to be on NS.


In the real world we don't sleep in latrines either. NS treats it as if we'll all chock to death if a city park gets bulldozed over, too unrealistic.

Fair enough lol. I'm looking for a compromise though. Welfare, healthcare, economic strength, income, and environment having a huge impact on the health of a nation's citizens is a pretty fair beta.

Not to mention I'm okay with turning my country into a Green Libertarian one, which should soften the blow from the ridiculous lifespan shortage this beta would cost me.
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:Also, not sure if this is a bug, or just as a result of some rescaling, but Pinkiopia sees substantial increases in both lifespan and death rate.

It's the rescaling. Currently Pinkiopia is ranked low in the world on both Lifespan and Death Rate! Under the beta, Pinkiopia's average lifespan will increase a little but still be less than average, while its Death Rate will increase a lot and be higher than average.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:05 pm

If I may, what's the reasoning behind lowering the impact the environment has on lifespan? Are there some nations with an unrealistically high lifespan due their environment when, all things considered, they live in a dangerous undeveloped hell hole?
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:23 pm

Yes, the general feeling is that the effect of the environment is overstated in a couple places, including Lifespan. It should be a factor but not an overwhelming one.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:25 pm

[violet] wrote:Yes, the general feeling is that the effect of the environment is overstated in a couple places, including Lifespan. It should be a factor but not an overwhelming one.

Fair enough.
*sigh*

I guess I'll just have to live the next 9 years of my life to the fullest lol

thx :bow:

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:56 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:Shouldn't the level of charitable spending be a factor there, as well? I'm not sure how you'd calculate that, though, I admit... Maybe, at least in part, have it (as in various RL cultures) increasing with Religiousness?
Compassion would be the logical stat for how much your citizens contribute to charity. [violet] said the calculation is already counting Niceness, which is close enough, although it was counted under the "less important" column.

I thought that 'Compassion' was based largely on your nation's willingness to support state funding of such matters (& welfare), meaning that it would already be factored-in and that nations whose people prefer charities instead would probably have relatively low values for this trait...
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934.

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Pencil Sharpeners 2
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Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:59 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Compassion would be the logical stat for how much your citizens contribute to charity. [violet] said the calculation is already counting Niceness, which is close enough, although it was counted under the "less important" column.

I thought that 'Compassion' was based largely on your nation's willingness to support state funding of such matters (& welfare), meaning that it would already be factored-in and that nations whose people prefer charities instead would probably have relatively low values for this trait...

I don't think so. My puppet Iguanarctica has low healthcare, non-existent welfare, but very high compassion.
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Marilyn Manson Freaks
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:43 am

I'm completely for this.
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The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom
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Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:25 am

Bears Armed wrote:I thought that 'Compassion' was based largely on your nation's willingness to support state funding of such matters (& welfare), meaning that it would already be factored-in and that nations whose people prefer charities instead would probably have relatively low values for this trait...


Purely my speculation: "compassion" as it is right now has no practical effect on anything but merely a score tied to a medal (world ranking icon). No 'charity' component in existence either, "welfare" spending is totally controlled by issue answers. Would be great if mod can confirm this.

[violet] wrote: ... Less important: the environment, political corruption, and citizen niceness. More important: citizen health, economic strength, poor incomes, and government spending on health and welfare. ...



Also, I think "cheerfulness" (optimism) is more apt than "niceness" (friendly, hospitable).
Last edited by The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom on Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

Very interesting. I’ve always been a bit surprised that my personal nation had such a low lifespan, given its high technological advancement, massive personal incomes, relative wealth equality, and so on. It was all that damn polluted environment’s fault.

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Looking forward to the average Landser living a bonus fifty years.
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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:09 pm

The beta description is a little misleading: this beta actually removes Niceness altogether from the algorithm. So there is no longer any impact on Lifespan from Niceness (nor its close relative, Compassion).

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:14 pm

Fantastic! My life expectancy is at 27.97 years for some bizarre reason, and has been for a while despite major investment in universal healthcare. The beta raises it to 90.28 years, so a massive difference!
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46566
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Postby 46566 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:05 pm

I don't mind this though I'm one of the ones with a big jump. I gain 72 years roughly. From 23 to 95 years.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:58 pm

46566 wrote:I don't mind this though I'm one of the ones with a big jump. I gain 72 years roughly. From 23 to 95 years.
That seems a bit much...

I see similarly enormous effects on nations such as Christian Democrats, Digmound, and Sovereign Default. I think the beta is just a bit imbalanced.

I’ve wanted this for a while, though. Most NS nations are developed nations, and developed nations should have lifespan in the 70+ range
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