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Why isn't Socialism/Communism as frowned upon as Fascism?

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Novowarsawianka
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Why isn't Socialism/Communism as frowned upon as Fascism?

Postby Novowarsawianka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:41 am

For tha sake of correctness, the thread will compare countries, regimes and movements which represented these ideologies. The argument that there was "no real" Socialist/Communist country might stand but they all aimed for it, and worked towards it. As for Fascism, the general broad view of Third Positionist governments will be taken, rather than Italian Fascism itself, this will though exclude right wing dictators who were not following any Third Positionist ideology.

The crimes of Fascist/Third Poistionist governments are no secret, and can easily be looked into given that they happened in a limited time frame, as well as mostly happening centered in Europe. As we all know, most of these crimes were committed by the National Socialist government and party of Germany, starting from their rise to power to their downfall. Aside starting a catastrophic war to feed it's ambition, it was it's brutal treatment and planned extermination of non-Germans, especially the Jews, which the world remembers. Fascist Italy, then the second largest combatant on the side of the axis in Europe, does not seem to have it's crimes well remembered. Having lead to the death of less people than it's German peer, it never the less committed horrible crimes in it's occupational zones, namely in Africa and the Adriatic coast, which range from war crimes to crimes against humanity, but also committed further crimes on their own soil, complying with Germany's anti-semitic policies. Other Fascist governments can be found in other axis alligned countries, such as Romania, the Independent State of Croatia, the First Slovak Republic, as well as collaborationist governments which held a Fascist conviction, such as Quisling's Norway or Nedic's Serbia.
This does not include Japan, which, even with it's similarities, never adopted a formal Fascist ideology, but rather an imperialist ultranationalist one. This can, admittedly be seen as a proto-fascist regime never the less, so we could include those victims too.

In conclusion: the contempt towards Fascist ideologies is widely known and a trait found in all modern democratic countries of the world, most notably those that fought against it. This contempt is mainly aimed at the National Socialists, and rightly so, given that they were the main "contirbutors" to such crimes against humanity.

But what about Socialist/Communist governments? In pure statistics, that death toll manages to "beat" the one inflicted by Fascism. The death caused by such regimes can be estimated to be ten times the ammount of the already mentioned Fascist ones. Unlike Facism, they happened through-out the globe, in a timeframe of nearly a century. It's long time existance outside of war, as well as it's application in different times and countries with different variations, is a good way to spot the failure of such an ideology as well.

While denial to horrible genocides such as the Holocaust is, thankfully, a crime in many countries, denial of Communist crimes, most notably the ones of the USSR, is almost not frowned upon, and sometimes there isn't enough light shed on it either. While anyone waving around a crooked cross are frowned upon, or the symbol might be even banned to begin with, waving around hammer and sicke signs is not as much frowned upon.

Which gives us the question: What causes such a thing?

I'd argue that it is pure ignorance. Many people try to point out how the USSR helped against Germany in WWII, but if one would look at the time before the war broke out between them, Stalin had no intent of attacking Hitler, in fact, providing him with valuable materials to fuel his war in the west. Not to forget that many countries which had suffered from Hitler's invasion fell pray to Stalin quickly after, experiencing five decades of torture and tyranny.
But also, it might have to do with the lack of education on that matter. Education has made National Socialist at least an unacceptable ideology in the modern world.
Last edited by Novowarsawianka on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:47 am

Well, I'm left-wing and I think that communism has caused much more suffering than fascism. I mean, just look at Stalin's gulags and the Great Leap Forward, for example.

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Postby Trumptonium » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:50 am

Mostly because millennials are edgy and Western history books are empty of the crimes and faults of communism, not to mention a large part of western academia and school teachers subscribe to these ideologies

Also because countries which have never been affected by communism, either through rule or war, don't know anything about it.

Countries which have been communist in the past (with the notable exception of Russia and Moldova) are completely devoid of any party in parliament that is further to the left than centre, and the youth tends to be more right wing than the mainstream. That's the effect of communism. Take a trip to Slovakia and the furthest left party (socially) is something equivalent to the GOP. Then there's 6 others that are more right-wing.

Don't want to be cliche but history is written by the winners. Education in matters of politics only serves a role of indoctrination. Tell people from a young age that fascism is bad, they'll think fascism is bad. Tell people both the extreme left and the extreme right are bad, that's what they'll believe. In the far West (that being 'Anglo-Saxon Capitalism' as per Chirac), youth are given a pat on the back for being idealistic utopians by believing in communism.
Last edited by Trumptonium on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Verlzonia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:54 am

Trumptonium wrote:Mostly because millennials are edgy and Western history books are empty of the crimes and faults of communism, not to mention a large part of western academia and school teachers subscribe to these ideologies

Also because countries which have never been affected by communism, either through rule or war, don't know anything about it.

Countries which have been communist in the past (with the notable exception of Russia and Moldova) are completely devoid of any party in parliament that is further to the left than centre, and the youth tends to be more right wing than the mainstream. That's the effect of communism. Take a trip to Slovakia and the furthest left party (socially) is something equivalent to the GOP. Then there's 6 others that are more right-wing.

Don't want to be cliche but history is written by the winners. Education in matters of politics only serves a role of indoctrination. Tell people from a young age that fascism is bad, they'll think fascism is bad. Tell people both the extreme left and the extreme right are bad, that's what they'll believe. In the far West (that being 'Anglo-Saxon Capitalism' as per Chirac), youth are given a pat on the back for being idealistic utopians by believing in communism.


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Postby Axis Nova » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:00 am

It is, you just arn't talking to the right people. A lot of older folks in Europe and the US certainly will have quite a bit to say about it.

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Postby Bombadil » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:06 am

Look at the aim of both, communism is essentially born of an equal society, fascism is born of a nationalistic, corporatist dictatorship.

One should separate the forms of either in history, both of which were disasters, to the underlying concept. One is that equality is the ideal, the other is the betterment of a particular race is an ideal.

One can support the concept. Most communism as practiced was in fact Leninism, that held forced revolution was required. It's dumb to compare historical death rates.
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Novowarsawianka
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Postby Novowarsawianka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:23 am

Trumptonium wrote:Mostly because millennials are edgy and Western history books are empty of the crimes and faults of communism, not to mention a large part of western academia and school teachers subscribe to these ideologies

Also because countries which have never been affected by communism, either through rule or war, don't know anything about it.

Countries which have been communist in the past (with the notable exception of Russia and Moldova) are completely devoid of any party in parliament that is further to the left than centre, and the youth tends to be more right wing than the mainstream. That's the effect of communism. Take a trip to Slovakia and the furthest left party (socially) is something equivalent to the GOP. Then there's 6 others that are more right-wing.

Don't want to be cliche but history is written by the winners. Education in matters of politics only serves a role of indoctrination. Tell people from a young age that fascism is bad, they'll think fascism is bad. Tell people both the extreme left and the extreme right are bad, that's what they'll believe. In the far West (that being 'Anglo-Saxon Capitalism' as per Chirac), youth are given a pat on the back for being idealistic utopians by believing in communism.



I agree. I am always for a secular society, but it seems Communism gave reason for anti-secular powers to rise, only showing what kind of scars it left them.
There are still leftist parties in many of those nations but they seem to have become quite pro Russian today.

But yes, people who have suffered Soviet rule will always fight communism being imposed on them once more.

Russia for instance is interesting, since one of the few relevant parties it has is openly pro-Stalinistic as well.

Bombadil wrote:Look at the aim of both, communism is essentially born of an equal society, fascism is born of a nationalistic, corporatist dictatorship.

One should separate the forms of either in history, both of which were disasters, to the underlying concept. One is that equality is the ideal, the other is the betterment of a particular race is an ideal.

One can support the concept. Most communism as practiced was in fact Leninism, that held forced revolution was required. It's dumb to compare historical death rates.


If we look at it ideologically, Fascism is about the nation-state, not about any race in particular. In fact, Mussolini himself went so far as to claim that races don't exist.
Fascism is aimed at unity under a nation, Communism is aimed at unity under a class, both will end up treating you, an individual, as nothing more than a cog in their machine. In practice, any belief other than their own would be trampled upon, debates would cease and the land they rule over would decay into tyranny, as happens with all one party states.
Last edited by Novowarsawianka on Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Hammer Britannia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:29 am

Because, unlike Fascism, the globalist reptilians who write our history books support Communism and want to brainwash our children to believe Mao did nothing wrong.

In all seriousness, the reason why Socialism/Communism isn't as frowned upon is that, unlike Fascism, there are a large minority of people who support it.This small minority, however, is spreading quickly as we are growing up in an age where the millennials realize that "In the real world, you don't get free shit. So I am going to support an Ideology that does". This spread has affected how many schools run, IE: One time I read a history book in 12th grade and they only promoted the Pros of Stalinism, which might explain why many don't see Communism as evil.


That's just my two cents though, I might delete this later because I am hungover from drinking my work stress away yesterday
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Postby Radiatia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:31 am

I've struggled to understand this myself and my best guess is something to do with history being written by the victors.

The Soviets helped us win World War II, therefore history will record them as being "the good guys" and totally gloss over the fact that Stalin killed far more people than Hitler did.

As for Mao, I suspect that realpolitik and the fact that he became considerably more friendly to the west after the Sino-Soviet split is a huge factor in why his crimes have disappeared from our understanding of history (despite the fact that he is actually the single biggest mass murderer in history).

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Postby Bombadil » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:35 am

Novowarsawianka wrote:If we look at it ideologically, Fascism is about the nation-state, not about any race in particular. In fact, Mussolini himself went so far as to claim that races don't exist.
Fascism is aimed at unity under a nation, Communism is aimed at unity under a class, both will end up treating you, an individual, as nothing more than a cog in their machine. In practice, any belief other than their own would be trampled upon, debates would cease and the land they rule over would decay into tyranny, as happens with all one party states.


If we thus whittle it down then one assumes exclusion in building a nation state and one assumes inclusion in breaking down class barriers.

Hammer Britannia wrote:That's just my two cents though, I might delete this later because I am hungover from drinking my work stress away yesterday


Ironic..

Still.. if we look to 'what can be' as to 'what was' then an equal society is surely a better aspiration over national unity. We can work out the details later.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 am

Well Nazi Germany tried to take over the world and murder everyone Hitler had designated as inferior. Slightly worse than trying to spread a different economic system.
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Postby Osnil Returns » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 am

Because the Left infiltrated the education system in the 1900s and now they dominate it with their socialistic/commie views. And parents don't care because the school system is a government-funded babysitting service.
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Postby -United Republic of Freedonia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:42 am

Is true that Communism has killed people as Fascism. But at least has some proper goals, like social equality. Not like Fascism where's the goal is fucking kill everyone.
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Postby The Transhuman Union » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:43 am

-United Republic of Freedonia wrote:Is true that Communism has killed people as Fascism. But at least has some proper goals, like social equality. Not like Fascism where's the goal is fucking kill everyone.


That's not really a goal, more like it's a prequisite to achieve the goal of fascism.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:45 am

Osnil Returns wrote:Because the Left infiltrated the education system in the 1900s and now they dominate it with their socialistic/commie views. And parents don't care because the school system is a government-funded babysitting service.

Lucky for you that you're such a powerful free-thinker
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Postby -United Republic of Freedonia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:48 am

The Transhuman Union wrote:That's not really a goal, more like it's a prequisite to achieve the goal of fascism.

Hmm. You are right about that. If you want to see the goals of fascism talk to dis dud.
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Postby Bombadil » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:48 am

The Transhuman Union wrote:
-United Republic of Freedonia wrote:Is true that Communism has killed people as Fascism. But at least has some proper goals, like social equality. Not like Fascism where's the goal is fucking kill everyone.


That's not really a goal, more like it's a prequisite to achieve the goal of fascism.


Well part of the problem is that Fascism was the least defined of post-monarchical systems, in fact one might argue it was simply militaristic monarchism, using the industry of the nationstate to wage war.
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Postby Novowarsawianka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:56 am

Ifreann wrote:Well Nazi Germany tried to take over the world and murder everyone Hitler had designated as inferior. Slightly worse than trying to spread a different economic system.


Communism being just about a "different economic system" is a statement detached from reality. Communism still had the goal to, forcefully, conquer the world under the pretext of "revolution". Communism has the goal of a moneyless society without the existence of privately owned capital, so guess what would happen if you would not comply with them robbing you? Or if you had any objection?

In the end, if you ask the a victim of the SS or the NKVD what they think about those ideologies, you'll hear only silence.

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Postby Crystalfields » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:59 am

Idk, I`ve seen many people making fun of communism in memes about how it doesn`t work.

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Postby Novowarsawianka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:07 am

Bombadil wrote:
The Transhuman Union wrote:
That's not really a goal, more like it's a prequisite to achieve the goal of fascism.


Well part of the problem is that Fascism was the least defined of post-monarchical systems, in fact one might argue it was simply militaristic monarchism, using the industry of the nationstate to wage war.


The issue with it is that Fascism is mostly used interchangeably with Third Positionism. Italian Fascism is well defined, the ideologies which stem from it have to define themselves, and of course they differ. Fascism is based on the national mythos, as such, it changes in every country. You could have several forms of totally different fascism within one nation.

So, view Fascism rather as a set of ideologies centered around the concept of the nation and it's totality, rather than forcing yourself to view it as a monolithic ideology.

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Postby Japan and Pacific States » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:10 am

Novowarsawianka wrote: Snip.


Well you see, it's mainly because leftists nowadays have a very (in my opinion) unnatural control over universities as well as media, that and the very visible of dumbing down of people nowadays. Nobody believes Socialism/Communism is a threat because we(meaning the school systems of the west) don't emphasize the dangers of the ideology as most of whom I'd suppose would be teaching it would be in agreement with the ideologies of Socialism/Communism. If we were to sack teachers of whom were exposed or believed to be socialists then we do put in actual neutral centrist teachers (ironic I say this even though I myself am a fascist) and encourage the teachings of all the historic man made disasters as well as mass murders of people under Communism. I'd think if we were to put focus on the problems as well as the results of Communist take overs of countries. Such as when the Soviets took over Russia, murder of people in power as well as the Tsar and his family, then let's not forget the murder of Ukrainians via starvation during the Ukraine "famine", oh and my favourite, the ever so denied katyn massacre. The absurdity of the argument of whether Fascism is worse than Communism/Socialism should not be an argument. It's obvious that Communism/Socialism is indeed worse than Fascism.
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Postby Escocaria » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:10 am

Ifreann wrote:Well Nazi Germany tried to take over the world and murder everyone Hitler had designated as inferior. Slightly worse than trying to spread a different economic system.

Nazi Germany didn't try to take over the world, it tried to re-take the territories of the German Empire and take over Slavic Europe in order to secure the future of the German people and destroy the Slavs and the Jews, a people they considered to be inferior to the German people.

Hitler was merely an idiot who got over-confident while being ambitious as fuck.
Last edited by Escocaria on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Shikihara » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 am

It might have to do with the fact that Communism is completely irrelevant to the West's political scene, being discredited in most people's eyes with the fall of the Soviet Union. Unlike Nazism, it based it's claim to legitimacy on the purported "scientific" character of it's ideology, whereas the other relies on racial hatred. Neo-Fascism, in contrast, is a loud and violent minority where notorious murderers such as David Lane, Anders Breivik, and Dylan Roof are celebrated, and able to hold rallies.
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Postby The Transhuman Union » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 am

Japan and Pacific States wrote:
Novowarsawianka wrote: Snip.


Well you see, it's mainly because leftists nowadays have a very (in my opinion) unnatural control over universities as well as media, that and the very visible of dumbing down of people nowadays. Nobody believes Socialism/Communism is a threat because we(meaning the school systems of the west) don't emphasize the dangers of the ideology as most of whom I'd suppose would be teaching it would be in agreement with the ideologies of Socialism/Communism. If we were to sack teachers of whom were exposed or believed to be socialists then we do put in actual neutral centrist teachers (ironic I say this even though I myself am a fascist) and encourage the teachings of all the historic man made disasters as well as mass murders of people under Communism. I'd think if we were to put focus on the problems as well as the results of Communist take overs of countries. Such as when the Soviets took over Russia, murder of people in power as well as the Tsar and his family, then let's not forget the murder of Ukrainians via starvation during the Ukraine "famine", oh and my favourite, the ever so denied katyn massacre. The absurdity of the argument of whether Fascism is worse than Communism/Socialism should not be an argument. It's obvious that Communism/Socialism is indeed worse than Fascism.


How in the world is socialism worse than fascism? Please explain.
And please don't mix Stalinist communism with democratic socialism.
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Nuverikstan wrote:

When you have to explain that whatever the OP says goes, and if that means 2 billion Dutch rebels in a world of less than 2 billion people, so be it!

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Postby Changjo » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 am

Escocaria wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Well Nazi Germany tried to take over the world and murder everyone Hitler had designated as inferior. Slightly worse than trying to spread a different economic system.

Nazi Germany didn't try to take over the world, it tried to re-take the territories of the German Empire and take over Slavic Europe in order to secure the future of the German people and destroy the Slavs and the Jews, a people they considered to be inferior to the German people.

Hitler was merely an idiot who got over-confident while being ambitious as fuck.


I think you need to catch up on your history. Most of the land occupied by Nazi Germany was never even close to being a part of the German Empire

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