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Please point me to socialism that works.

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Janszoonia
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Please point me to socialism that works.

Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:03 am

Socialists of NationStates, I have one question: What form of socialism works, which one will work for America. I ask this question because I understand that American socialists probably will be a lot more generous on religion, unions, minority issues, lgbtq+ issues, and immigration. I am asking will this work? If not, what needs to be adjusted to make American socialism work? My proposal would be a more liberal version of Titoism, with more rights given to unions, the religious, and lgbtq+ folk.
Last edited by Janszoonia on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:15 am

Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 am

Janszoonia wrote:Socialists of NationStates, I have one question: What form of socialism works,

European social democracy tends to produce very favorable results.

which one will work for America.

Look up New Deal era policies. You had functioning socialism and than you tore it down.

Thermodolia wrote:Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up

No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.
Last edited by Purpelia on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:18 am

Purpelia wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up

No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.


And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:23 am

Janszoonia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:

No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.


And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.

This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.
I grew tired of my old signature. In fact I grew tired of everything. Everything.

Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:23 am

As a collaborationist social democrat who loves the smell of a decaying Rosa Luxemburg in the morning, I'm not a particular expert on the microtypes of socialism/communism.

But to avoid the issues that often plague such threads, before we start you probably need to think about, and specify more in the OP, what you mean by "works".

What does the success of an economic and political system look like?

Are we interested only in strictly quantitative "standard of living" indices or more qualitiative ones about "quality of life"?

In terms of evidence of things "working", or particular forms being practicable, are short or medium term examples acceptable or is the fact that a country was taken over or that another system eventually emerged - meaning that the system is not in place today - itself evidence of failure?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:24 am

Purpelia wrote:
Janszoonia wrote:
And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.

This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.

I would prefer more empowerment for unions in American socialism, as well as the right to bear arms, speak freely, and worship freely.
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:25 am

Purpelia wrote:
Janszoonia wrote:
And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.

This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.

The gulags was not just a harsh prison
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Postby Donut section » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:26 am

Best weight loss system ever.

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Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:27 am

The of Japan wrote:
Purpelia wrote:This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.

The gulags was not just a harsh prison

Gulags were death camps that ended up killing more people than the holocaust.
(Gulags killed 32M while the holocaust killed 11M, this is not to justify the holocaust in any way shape or form.)
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:33 am

Donut section wrote:Best weight loss system ever.


I think you're confusing "socialism" with "bulimia".
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Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:34 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Donut section wrote:Best weight loss system ever.


I think you're confusing "socialism" with "bulimia".

Yep, gulag prisoners died of bulimia. Just like how concentration camp prisoners died of typhus.
Good job making /pol/ style arguments.
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Last edited by Janszoonia on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 am

Janszoonia wrote:
The of Japan wrote:The gulags was not just a harsh prison

Gulags were death camps that ended up killing more people than the holocaust.
(Gulags killed 32M while the holocaust killed 11M, this is not to justify the holocaust in any way shape or form.)

No they really didn't. The number you listed there is basically all the Soviet losses from all causes during WW2 including the Germans.

I mean, think about it for a moment. Modern day Russia only has 5 times that many people. And it's basically 3/4 of the old Soviet Union. Can you imagine just what kind of social collapse that would have caused?
Last edited by Purpelia on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
I grew tired of my old signature. In fact I grew tired of everything. Everything.

Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:40 am

Purpelia wrote:
Janszoonia wrote:Gulags were death camps that ended up killing more people than the holocaust.
(Gulags killed 32M while the holocaust killed 11M, this is not to justify the holocaust in any way shape or form.)

No they really didn't. The number you listed there is basically all the Soviet losses from all causes during WW2 including the Germans.

I mean, think about it for a moment. Modern day Russia only has 5 times that many people. And it's basically 3/4 of the old Soviet Union. Can you imagine just what kind of social collapse that would have caused?

Yes, how could the Soviets have made it to space with such a large social collapse? It's likely that while a lot of Russians were killed in gulags, a lot more Germans and Finns were killed.
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Postby The Conez Imperium » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:43 am

Janszoonia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:No they really didn't. The number you listed there is basically all the Soviet losses from all causes during WW2 including the Germans.

I mean, think about it for a moment. Modern day Russia only has 5 times that many people. And it's basically 3/4 of the old Soviet Union. Can you imagine just what kind of social collapse that would have caused?

Yes, how could the Soviets have made it to space with such a large social collapse? It's likely that while a lot of Russians were killed in gulags, a lot more Germans and Finns were killed.


The large, large majority of Gulags weren't death camps or extermination camps. They were more like remote villages in Siberia with horrible living conditions and difficult work to do. Gulags were more effective at isolating populations rather than producing quality goods/services.

I seem to recall some gulags didn't even have fences because they were just so remote from the rest of civilisation.
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:43 am

Janszoonia wrote:Yes, how could the Soviets have made it to space with such a large social collapse? It's likely that while a lot of Russians were killed in gulags, a lot more Germans and Finns were killed.

Just managing a system to kill 30 megapeople in the middle or immediately after the most catastrophic war in human history would be a feat that makes going to the moon sound like a walk in the park. So like if you want to throw numbers around I want some citations. And some rather good ones too.
I grew tired of my old signature. In fact I grew tired of everything. Everything.

Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:46 am

Janszoonia wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
I think you're confusing "socialism" with "bulimia".

Yep, gulag prisoners died of bulimia. Just like how concentration camp prisoners died of typhus.
Good job making /pol/ style arguments.
:clap: :clap: :clap:


I'm not sure if you think I'm arguing that's what happened, if you think that our Donuty friend is arguing that this is what happened, or if you really like the clap smilie and wanted to write something as fantastically silly as possible so you had an excuse to congratulate yourself by spamming it afterwards?

This is odd behaviour.

Clue: what side of the broad left/right divide would you speculatively put someone who sarcastically responds to a poster's suggestion that socialism would necessarily result in everyone not receiving enough calories? Now are there many of those on /pol/?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cosmalia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:54 am

Purpelia wrote:
Janszoonia wrote:which one will work for America.

Look up New Deal era policies. You had functioning socialism and than you tore it down.


Just going to point out the fact that New Deal economic policies are known to have prolonged the Great Depression by almost a decade.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:02 am

Cosmalia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Look up New Deal era policies. You had functioning socialism and than you tore it down.


Just going to point out the fact that New Deal economic policies are known to have prolonged the Great Depression by almost a decade.


Some schools have certainly argued that. There's also a rather popular alternative stance that they softened the effects of depression, kept the economy from crashing completely, and therefore reduced its overall economic impact. It isn't "known" or a "fact" - that's one position based on a particular economic theory and set of models. Others are available!
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Postby Kartofian » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:22 am

Not a country, but Mondragon is a pretty good example of what a functioning worker cooperative should look like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:23 am

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Postby Liriena » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:54 am

The fábricas recuperadas are doing alright, and those are pretty much textbook socialism in practice: workers owning the means of production. I have read some good stuff about Zapatista Chiapas, and Rojava, while hardly flawless, seems to be on the right track.
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Postby GreatestCountryOnEarth » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:01 am

socialism doesnt work for various reasons.

the best type of rule is the long lasting and the one that satisfies if not all, at least most people.

socialism rarely cares about peoples voices or free elections. often elections are banned and people killed for not liking policies etc.

socialism rarely cares about peoples consuming needs and focuses on the wishes of the worker-controlled industry which doesnt care what the masses need to consume but rather what the workers want to produce.

socialism destroys inheritance, a human family based society is focused on working hard to leave ur offspring something behind because u care about them, socialism's 100% inheritance tax kills the family. kids will care more about the government than their own parents or grandparents. why even get married then?

a wealthy society is achieved through hard work and incentives, what incentives can one have if u work twice as hard as ur neighbor, but get paid the same? production will fall drastically, along it will fall goods present for the people and general mood will reach historic lows.

socialism tends to block free speech which is usually used by the folks to express what they need.

socialism bans almost always private gun owning which is all people have to defend themselves from a possible tyranny or abusive government(aggressive officials or passive officials bribed from criminal groups) .

socialism bans real money in favor of a fake currency, often more of a point/credit system than an actual monetary unit. money helps people to protect themselves, private security when the government is evil or purposely passive and careless. real money help people buy what they need rather than the state-made junk food. money helps
gather and rent places, create a people-run media etc.

a stable society needs order, socialism is half-anarchic, punishments for heinous crimes are often not enough. 12 years of jail for taking a life is not fair in anyway. and people cant do anything about it because they dont have free media, free elections or money to change the system.

socialism doesnt work because it bans all the basic tools people have to defend themselves for rising tyrants. free media, money, guns, free elections. all of which in socialist regimes are state controlled, ur not even allowed to form political organizations that have different views from socialism, or u the people are actually "enemies of the people" because a tiny group of tyrants say so.

lawyers are all public officials appoint by the state, u know whats going to happen if u show up for trial "for treason for disagreeing with the government", u also know whats going to happen to ur dear ones.

u dont have private detective or private investigation companies to defend urself in court from state controlled police, prosecutors, judges who are appointed in office from people who appointed themselves as the government in first place.

socialism isnt tyranny by definition, but it block all the tools that the masses have to defend themselves from tyranny. and we saw what has happened with every single socialst regime in the history of the humanity, they all ended becoming oppressing dictatorships, because the people couldnt do anything about it.
Last edited by GreatestCountryOnEarth on Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Bombadil » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:02 am

GreatestCountryOnEarth wrote:socialism doesnt work for various reasons.

the best type of rule is the long lasting and the one that satisfies if not all, at least most people.

socialism rarely cares about peoples voices or free elections. often elections are banned and people killed for not liking policies etc.

socialism rarely cares about peoples consuming needs and focuses on the wishes of the worker-controlled industry which doesnt care what the masses need to consume but rather what the workers want to produce.

socialism destroys inheritance, a human family based society is focused on working hard to leave ur offspring something behind because u care about them, socialism's 100% inheritance tax kills the family. kids will care more about the government than their own parents or grandparents. why even get married then?

a wealthy society is achieved through hard work and incentives, what incentives can one have if u work twice as hard as ur neighbor, but get paid the same? production will fall drastically, along it will fall goods present for the people and general mood will reach historic lows.

socialism tends to block free speech which is usually used by the folks to express what they need.

socialism bans almost always private gun owning which is all people have to defend themselves from a possible tyranny or abusive government(aggressive officials or passive officials bribed from criminal groups) .

socialism bans real money in favor of a fake currency, often more of a point/credit system than an actual monetary unit. money helps people to protect themselves, private security when the government is evil or purposely passive and careless. real money help people buy what they need rather than the junk state-made junk food. money helps
gather and rent places, create a people-run media etc.

a stable society needs order, socialism is half-anarchic, punishments for heinous crimes are often not enough. 12 years of jail for taking a life is not fair in anyway. and people cant do anything about it because they dont have free media, free elections or money to change the system.

socialism doesnt work because it bans all the basic tools people have to defend themselves for rising tyrants. free media, money, guns, free elections. all of which in socialist regimes are state controlled, ur not even allowed to form political organizations that have different views from socialism, or u the people are actually "enemies of the people" because a tiny group of tyrants say so.

lawyers are all public officials appoint by the state, u know whats going to happen if u show up for trial "for treason for disagreeing with the government", u also know whats going to happen to ur dear ones.

u dont have private detector or private investigation companies to defend urself in court from state controlled police, prosecutors, judges who are appointed in office from people who appointed themselves as the government in first place.

socialism isnt tyranny by definition, but it block all the tools that the masses have to defend themselves from tyranny. and we saw what has happened with every single socialst regime in the history of the humanity, they all ended becoming oppressing dictatorships, because the people couldnt do anything about it.


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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:14 am

Donut section wrote:Best weight loss system ever.

Image

For starters, Cuba has done fairly well in the nutrition department, specially when compared to the rest of Latin America. And during the early Mao years, there was a substantial recovery and growth in agricultural output.
Last edited by Liriena on Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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