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"It's the Law"

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The Parkus Empire
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"It's the Law"

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:31 pm

Tyranny and anarchy are not opposites, but brothers, twins even. The tyrant is the man who is "above the law," he is Junger's "anarch". Not only civilization, but freedom itself is founded upon law. The march toward freer society has been nothing more than a march toward rule of law, which is to say ensuring that all are subjected to the same law. Both reactionaries and leftists might well disagree, for the reactionaries will say that the king is the foundation of society rather than the law, and leftists will say the law itself can become a tyrant.

To reactionaries I answer that however much they exalt the "divine right of kings," the Bible itself is clear that God intended rule of law: he established a law, and set judges over the Israelites; they themselves, incapable of this society, eventually demanded a king instead. God warned them in no uncertain terms that a king would be an oppressor, but they demanded one anyway, and so he granted them such. In this no doubt God was prudent, for not every society is fit for rule of law.

To leftists I answer that the law cannot become a tyrant by definition, for the law cannot be above itself, though it might contradict itself; a law can be flawed, every law is. Nonetheless, a flawed law is virtually always preferable to no law. When we seek freedom at the expense of law, we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. When you disregard the law for the sake of freedom, you are leaving the backdoor open to tyranny. Many leftists will claim what I am saying is unfair, for they by no means oppose law as such, but only law as it stands. They say we ought to clear the table of all law, but not to abolish law itself, nay, rather to erect a new law. I tell you that this is unwise, for a law's weight is inextricably bound up with tradition: the American Revolutionaries did not embark upon their enterprise on the basis of abolishing the law to erect a new one, no; their assertion was that the king was suddenly and blatantly violating the law, and so by law they rejected him. Law's value takes time to assert itself; the longer it endures, the greater faith society has in it. And not only that, but it takes time to perfect, to iron out, to make consistent and applicable (this is why I put much more stock in common law than legislated law). I do not mean a change in interpretation, such as the idea of the American Contitution as a "living document," which is reinterpreted to accord with the ideology of the judge; no, to do so in fact destroys the credibility of the law, it makes a fickle panderer of it, ready to quickly betray what it promised to us yesterday because it has a new master now. For we all know that law must change, be corrected, but the fixed meaning of it is what allows us to depend on it in spite of that. Correction of law must always be a change in the law, not in the law's meaning. The very job of the judge is to affirm a fixed meaning, not to affirm a law as subjective.

In closing, law cannot replace God, for law is a matter of justice, whereas Saint Isaac the Syrian rightfully noted that justice is the enemy of mercy. If we seek to be Godly, we must seek to be merciful, not just, for God warned us against judging. Those who seek to impose the norms of their faith through law would be well to keep this in mind. And to those who wish to do away with norms altogether, since we now have law, I caution you: the very reason the law does not legislate norms is not because norms are unimportant, but because society has the agency to do that for itself. If we seek to abolish norms in society, it is inevitable that law will enact them, since we have forfeited, indeed outright rejected, the responsibility.

I invite you to post your perspective on law, as well as any rebuttals you might have to my argument.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:32 pm

Would they not give you a pulpit or something?
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:37 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Would they not give you a pulpit or something?


I am unsure of what you are criticizing. My reference to God? This is in direct rejoinder to UMN and OT.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:39 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Would they not give you a pulpit or something?


I am unsure of what you are criticizing. My reference to God? This is in direct rejoinder to UMN and OT.

No, the fact that 90% of your posting on here comes off more like a lecture or a sermon than a call to discussion.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
I am unsure of what you are criticizing. My reference to God? This is in direct rejoinder to UMN and OT.

No, the fact that 90% of your posting on here comes off more like a lecture or a sermon than a call to discussion.

That's because it is writing. I do not write as I talk. I write in a way appropriate to the medium. I am making an argument here.
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:43 pm

I am the law!
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Naifon
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Postby Naifon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:46 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:No, the fact that 90% of your posting on here comes off more like a lecture or a sermon than a call to discussion.

That's because it is writing. I do not write as I talk. I write in a way appropriate to the medium. I am making an argument here.

With all due respect, a treatise is no way to begin an argument. Use the traditional format; poll and question, y’hear?
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Insaeldor
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Postby Insaeldor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:48 pm

I remember something similar when I took the semester of philosophy at community college.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:03 pm

Insaeldor wrote:I remember something similar when I took the semester of philosophy at community college.

Well I am honored to have a scholar in my thread.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:07 pm

Naifon wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:That's because it is writing. I do not write as I talk. I write in a way appropriate to the medium. I am making an argument here.

With all due respect, a treatise is no way to begin an argument. Use the traditional format; poll and question, y’hear?


I am not arguing against one position, but several
I also don't see polls as serving any purpose here. They are just a way to express pure opinion with zero content.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Naifon
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Postby Naifon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:10 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Naifon wrote:With all due respect, a treatise is no way to begin an argument. Use the traditional format; poll and question, y’hear?


I am not arguing against one position, but several
I also don't see polls as serving any purpose here. They are just a way to express pure opinion with zero content.

I think an argument of many sides works to the detriment of all sides, as one cannot refrain from remarks on one side that contradict their previous remarks on another side.

As for the prompt, I disagree. Mob rule is not inherently inefficient. Wisdom of the crowd, no?
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:15 pm

If I'm understanding this right, if God is the perfect balance of justice and mercy, then he shouldn't have his law be governed by people who are not that. We should not be held to the same standard as God...
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"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:16 pm

Naifon wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
I am not arguing against one position, but several
I also don't see polls as serving any purpose here. They are just a way to express pure opinion with zero content.

I think an argument of many sides works to the detriment of all sides, as one cannot refrain from remarks on one side that contradict their previous remarks on another side.

As for the prompt, I disagree. Mob rule is not inherently inefficient. Wisdom of the crowd, no?

I did not really contradict myself.

Burke's idea that the individual is foolish and the species is wise is predicated on a society which includes the dead and unborn.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:28 pm

Menassa wrote:If I'm understanding this right, if God is the perfect balance of justice and mercy, then he shouldn't have his law be governed by people who are not that. We should not be held to the same standard as God...

God in Isaac's framework is not a balance. He compares God's justice to his mercy by the image of sand thrown in a raging river. And in a Christian framework, we are held to the same standard as God (incarnate). But I am not suggesting state law be Christian, rather I am rebutting that as even possible. My rebuttal here is not directed toward Jews, but specific Christians I had in mind. In Christianity, virtue is being godly; in Judaism, virtue is correct observance of the law. Judaism could, and indeed historically has, function as the basis of law, but Christianity really cannot, at least I do not believe it can.
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Postby Pope Joan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:30 pm

Despite what St Paul says, some laws and governments are clearly not of God and must not be obeyed. Bonhoeffer said this about Nazi Germany, Tutu said this about apartheid in South Africa, hundreds of northern pulpits preached this about the Fugitive Slave Act, and Jefferson helped found our nation upon that principle.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:32 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Menassa wrote:If I'm understanding this right, if God is the perfect balance of justice and mercy, then he shouldn't have his law be governed by people who are not that. We should not be held to the same standard as God...

God in Isaac's framework is not a balance. He compares God's justice to his mercy by the image of sand thrown in a raging river. And in a Christian framework, we are held to the same standard as God (incarnate). But I am not suggesting state law be Christian, rather I am rebutting that as even possible. My rebuttal here is not directed toward Jews, but specific Christians I had in mind. In Christianity, virtue is being godly; in Judaism, virtue is correct observance of the law. Judaism could, and indeed historically has, function as the basis of law, but Christianity really cannot, at least I do not believe it can.

Wouldn't Christianity's thing be about Faith in God? Also correct observance in Judaism is a means to a worldly and otherworldly end.
Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey --- Do not Forget!
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:36 pm

Pope Joan wrote:Despite what St Paul says, some laws and governments are clearly not of God and must not be obeyed. Bonhoeffer said this about Nazi Germany, Tutu said this about apartheid in South Africa, hundreds of northern pulpits preached this about the Fugitive Slave Act, and Jefferson helped found our nation upon that principle.

Paul knew what he was talking about, he didn't mean obey authorities even if they tell you to go against God, since he himself was persecuted and eventually killed by the authorities. The Old Testament shows kings as divinely ordained, but Elijah still faced off with Ahab.
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Postby Albrenia » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:40 pm

Naifon wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
I am not arguing against one position, but several
I also don't see polls as serving any purpose here. They are just a way to express pure opinion with zero content.

I think an argument of many sides works to the detriment of all sides, as one cannot refrain from remarks on one side that contradict their previous remarks on another side.

As for the prompt, I disagree. Mob rule is not inherently inefficient. Wisdom of the crowd, no?


I always found individuals to generally have far more wisdom than the mob.

As for the OP, I'm an Atheist so obviously I'm not concerned by the place of God in the law. Traditions can be changed and in many cases should. Is does not imply ought, after all.
Last edited by Albrenia on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:45 pm

Menassa wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:God in Isaac's framework is not a balance. He compares God's justice to his mercy by the image of sand thrown in a raging river. And in a Christian framework, we are held to the same standard as God (incarnate). But I am not suggesting state law be Christian, rather I am rebutting that as even possible. My rebuttal here is not directed toward Jews, but specific Christians I had in mind. In Christianity, virtue is being godly; in Judaism, virtue is correct observance of the law. Judaism could, and indeed historically has, function as the basis of law, but Christianity really cannot, at least I do not believe it can.

Wouldn't Christianity's thing be about Faith in God? Also correct observance in Judaism is a means to a worldly and otherworldly end.

Protestant Christianity is strictly about faith, but Orthodox Christianity is about being godly through uniting one's operations with God's, and by mortifying self-will through things like fasting and mourning one's sinfulness before God. Christ's death is not external to us, in place of ours, but a death we share in, thereby satisfying the curse. While salvation comes to us through faith, we consider salvation to be synonymous with perfect harmony with God's operations.

I understand the function of correct observance in Judaism and why it is taken extremely seriously.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shulimai » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 pm

Though I do agree with most what's been said, I think this argument implodes as it stands on its own. It is a jab against two forms of ideology straight out of the fog. Have you been harassed by leftists and reactionaries lately?
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:50 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Menassa wrote:Wouldn't Christianity's thing be about Faith in God? Also correct observance in Judaism is a means to a worldly and otherworldly end.

Protestant Christianity is strictly about faith, but Orthodox Christianity is about being godly through uniting one's operations with God's, and by mortifying self-will through things like fasting and mourning one's sinfulness before God. Christ's death is not external to us, in place of ours, but a death we share in, thereby satisfying the curse. While salvation comes to us through faith, we consider salvation to be synonymous with perfect harmony with God's operations.

I understand the function of correct observance in Judaism and why it is taken extremely seriously.

So wouldn't that then, be the ideal state Law?
Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey --- Do not Forget!
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:52 pm

Shulimai wrote:Though I do agree with most what's been said, I think this argument implodes as it stands on its own. It is a jab against two forms of ideology straight out of the fog. Have you been harassed by leftists and reactionaries lately?

Yes, I post in the RWDT, somewhat against my will.
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Aillyria
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Postby Aillyria » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:52 pm

Comparing God (swt) with humans is a bad way to go, Parkus. God is the law because he is justice and is mercy....a man cannot be that. Man is fallible, and so is his law. When that law is flawed to the extension of detriment to society, it should be crushed and replaced promptly. Rule of law is worthless if it doesn't create a suitable environment for progress and harmony.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:55 pm

Aillyria wrote:Comparing God (swt) with humans is a bad way to go, Parkus. God is the law because he is justice and is mercy....a man cannot be that. Man is fallible, and so is his law. When that law is flawed to the extension of detriment to society, it should be crushed and replaced promptly. Rule of law is worthless if it doesn't create a suitable environment for progress and harmony.

That's why God would give a law to man...
Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey --- Do not Forget!
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:55 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Naifon wrote:I think an argument of many sides works to the detriment of all sides, as one cannot refrain from remarks on one side that contradict their previous remarks on another side.

As for the prompt, I disagree. Mob rule is not inherently inefficient. Wisdom of the crowd, no?


I always found individuals to generally have far more wisdom than the mob.

As for the OP, I'm an Atheist so obviously I'm not concerned by the place of God in the law. Traditions can be changed and in many cases should. Is does not imply ought, after all.

You depend enormously on the collective learning and wisdom and discovery of society, especially if we include the dead. An individual's wisdom draws mostly on the collective bank.

Tradition does change. Violently or abruptly disregarding it, however, is a bad idea.
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