[Petition/Discussion] Harassment and Off-Site Evidence

[Astarial]

To be added as a signer of this petition, please contact Astarial directly. Posts within this thread should be substantive.

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Discussion of the "Defamation" Rule should occur in that thread. This is a separate issue.

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Harassment and Off-Site Evidence in NationStates

Summary

This is a petition to NationStates (NS) moderation to revise the policies regarding off-site evidence with respect to cases of harassment, sexual misconduct, or other similarly damaging or predatory behavior.

The current policy states that no "off-site" behavior, meaning behavior occurring on any online location that does not fall under the nationstates.net domain, will be punished by NS moderation. This policy is justified with the argument that off-site evidence cannot be verified to be true, and thus cannot reasonably be acted upon on-site.

We, the undersigned, believe that this policy and its justification are extremely flawed and represent an abdication of responsibility to the entire NS community. We request that NS moderation adopt a new policy for handling complaints of off-site harassment, one which requires an investigation of off-site allegations and opens the door to an on-site response.

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What Is Wrong

NS is a game based on social interaction and building relationships with respect to the context of how the site is presented. Ultimately, this has and will lead to other interactions in which personal contact - whether platonic, romantic, or sexual - occurs. Unfortunately, not all instances of sexual behavior are consensual, nor do they all involve legal adults. A significant portion of the NS playerbase is underage, and can be particularly vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.

It is no exaggeration to say that every other month, a new incident of harassment surfaces - often sexual in nature. These cases frequently involve players with widespread name recognition and social networks across large swaths of the game base. The harassment of women and girls is particularly prevalent, though by no means are they the only victims.

In most cases, the individuals engaging in predatory behavior know that they will face no repercussions nor acknowledgements from NS moderation for their actions as long as there is no evidence of it occurring on-site. They are careful to confine their predation to regional forums, IRC channels, Discord servers, or other communication platforms. Once discovered, an exposed player is free to rejoin the game under a new identity, found a new region, or join a different NS sub-community, where they can easily seek out new victims.

Their ability to do so is compounded by NS moderation’s "defamation" rule, which prevents the open discussion of such incidents. Players are not permitted to speak about the perpetrators of any off-site harassment that has occurred. Even victims are forbidden to state the full truth of their own experiences in public. This culture of silence allows perpetrators to repeat their behavior, over and over, and renders the rest of us powerless to stop them - exactly as it does in real life.

Therein lies the core problem with this policy: by refusing to act on evidence for such behavior coming from off-site, NS moderation is directly complicit in enabling it to continue. There is one greater NS community, created through and rooted in the main NS site. In not punishing actions taking place in these other platforms where that community is also present, NS moderation is providing predatory players with unhindered access to a large pool of victims, without any fear of repercussions.

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Why This Is Wrong

Now we come to the justification for this harmful policy: off-site evidence cannot be verified and, therefore, cannot be acted upon. This is patently untrue for two reasons. First, much of the evidence in these cases can be verified to reasonable degrees of certainty. IP addresses can be checked; Facebook or other social media accounts can be inspected; logs of conversations can be cross-referenced; screenshots can be examined for fabrication; and reports can be corroborated by multiple players. While establishing absolute certainty is often impossible, in many cases it is very possible to establish clear and convincing evidence that the alleged behavior did indeed occur.¹

Second, when a full investigation of an allegation and supporting evidence has been carried out and the preponderance of that evidence indicates that a player has engaged in predatory behavior, the risk of further harm caused by not acting on this evidence (and thereby leaving countless other players vulnerable) in many cases far outweighs any remaining uncertainty that stems solely from the fact that the allegations came from off-site.

The fact of the matter is that verifying off-site evidence, and weighing certainty against risk, are not impossible - it simply takes effort to accomplish them. What the current NS moderation policy amounts to is a cop out, a flat denial to undertake any effort of this sort, to the detriment of the NS community.

Instead, the responsibility has fallen to community forum and chat moderators. Many of the undersigned players have spent literally months scouring through evidence to determine whether harassment allegations are true, or at least, likely enough to be true to warrant action. It is an incredibly demanding task, it takes large amounts of time, and it is absolutely not something any reasonable individual would enjoy. But it is something that has to be done. It is a core responsibility of those responsible for moderating an online community to ensure that said community provides a safe environment for its members.

But this is not enough. As established above, without follow-up from NS moderation, these localized actions really have very limited effect. It is, therefore, imperative that NS moderation accept their own responsibility to protect the NS community from harassing behavior, using all means possible.

¹It is worth pointing out that there is precedent for NS moderation validating off-site evidence. A very prominent example is the "Predator" case, where large amounts of off-site evidence, including player testimonies and logs from off-site communication platforms, were taken into consideration before deciding on punishments for individual players. If NS moderation is willing and able to validate off-site evidence with respect to trivial matters, such as determining whether a couple dozen people were able to click a button one second faster than others, then there is no excuse for refusing to do so with respect to matters with severe RL after-effects, including, for some, years of trauma.

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What We Want

Given the serious and often sensitive nature of such reported behavior, and out of consideration for all parties’ privacy while allegations are investigated, we want players to have the right to submit reports of harassment (sexual or otherwise), stalking, serious misrepresentation of identity (such as a known adult portraying themselves as a teenager in order to lure in younger players), and other predatory behavior via Getting Help Request, along with supporting and relevant evidence.

We want NS moderation to commit to investigating and verifying these reports, in the same way that our community moderators and admins do.

We want NS moderation to acknowledge that off-site punishments are insufficient, by themselves, to separate predators from potential victims, and to be willing to impose on-site punishments, up to and including DoS status, when a perpetrator’s behavior would have warranted those punishments if it had occurred on-site in the first place.

And finally, we want DoS bans for harassment or abuse to be announced in public, in line with prior investigations into major cases of wrongdoing (as has been done in the past). Public acknowledgement that this kind of behavior does happen and demonstration that it is taken seriously are critical for forming and maintaining a community where harassment is not tolerated.

Signed,

1. Abbey (Admin of The North Pacific)
2. ABC (Admin of Force; Chat Admin of Force and The New Kingdom)
3. Aelbarrow (Concerned NS Member)
4. Aenglaland (Concerned NS Member)
5. Aexnidaral Seymour (Concerned NS Member)
6. Alkasia (Concerned NS Member)
7. Almonaster Nuevo (Concerned NS Member)
8. Alt (Concerned NS Member)
9. Altino (Admin of Karma, Chat Admin of Osiris, The West Pacific, and NSGP)
10. Amuaplye (Concerned NS Member)
11. Appalachian Communists (Concerned NS Member)
12. Artemis (Admin of the Kingdom of Alexandria and Merridel)
13. Astarial (Admin of The North Pacific)
14. Aurum Rider (Admin of the Kingdom of Alexandria)
15. Aynia (Admin of Caer Sidi; Concerned NS Member)
16. Badger (Admin of The West Pacific, Karma, and NSGP; Chat Admin of The West Pacific and TWPAF)
17. Caelapes (Admin and Chat Admin of NSLeft, The Internationale, and The Red Fleet)
18. Byzantii (Concerned NS Member)
19. Calvin Coolidge (Concerned NS Member)
20. Camp Hebron (Concerned NS Member)
21. Canton Empire (Concerned NS Member)
22. Cat (Concerned NS Member)
23. Cormac (Admin of Osiris)
24. Courelli (Admin of the Social Liberal Union)
25. Crushing Our Enemies (Admin of The Black Hawks)
26. Cthoria (Admin of Caer Sidi; Concerned NS Member)
27. Darcania (Admin of The North Pacific)
28. Darcness (Chat Admin of Europeia; Concerned NS Member)
29. Darkmania (Concerned NS Member)
30. Derps (Concerned NS Member)
31. Devil Heart (Admin of Canada)
32. Drasnia (Admin of Capitalist Paradise, Moderator of NSGP and the Kingdom of Alexandria)
33. East Malaysia (Admin of The East Pacific)
34. Egalotir (Concerned NS Member)
35. Elfine (General of The East Pacific)
36. Escade (Concerned NS Member)
37. Fartsniffage (Admin of The Cavern)
38. Fogwood Wilderness (Concerned NS Member)
39. Frattastan (Admin of the Rejected Realms)
40. Funkadelia (Root Admin and Delegate of Lazarus)
41. Gladio (Concerned NS Member)
42. Gothecica (Concerned NS Member)
43. Greater Cesnica (Concerned NS Member)
44. Greater Vakolicci Haven (Concerned NS Member)
45. Greyghost (Concerned NS Member)
46. Gyflada (Admin of United Kingdom, the New United Kingdom, and the Commonwealth of Gyflada; Concerned NS Member)
47. HEM (Chief Administrator of Europeia)
48. Henry IX (Root Admin and Chat Admin of the Kingdom of Great Britain)
49. House of Judah (Admin of Medieval Europe)
50. Imkihca (Concerned NS Member)
51. Imperium Anglorum (Concerned NS Member)
52. Isalucia (Admin of The Galactic Order)
53. Isaris (Chat Admin of Equilism)
54. Khronion (Admin of the Kingdom of Alexandria)
55. Kuramia (Concerned NS Member)
56. Kylia Quilor (Root Admin of Kantrias; Concerned NS Member)
57. Lady Scylla (Concerned NS Member)
58. Lenlyvit (Admin of 10000 Islands)
59. Lethen (Admin of Europeia; Concerned NS Member)
60. Libertaum (Concerned NS Member)
61. Lockdownn (Admin of the Global Federation)
62. Lord Ravenclaw (Admin of The North Pacific, The East Pacific and the Kingdom of Alexandria)
63. Luziyca (Concerned NS Member)
64. Lynneiah (Concerned NS Member)
65. MagentaFairy (Admin of Albion)
66. Malashaan (Admin of Europeia)
67. Malphe (Concerned NS Member)
68. McMannia Whitehall (Founder of HYDRA)
69. McMasterdonia (Admin of The North Pacific and the Kingdom of Alexandria)
70. Miedzymorse (Concerned NS Member)
71. Mikeswill (Admin of NationStates)
72. Minoa (Author of Issue #666, Webmaster of the NationStates Index)
73. Nakari (Concerned NS Member)
74. Narci (Concerned NS Member)
75. North East Somerset (Admin of Balder, Europeia, and the Land of Kings and Emperors)
76. Oakrugia (Founder and Admin of Krasnodar; Concerned NS Member)
77. Olivia (Admin of Albion and the Kingdom of Alexandria)
78. OnderKelkia (Admin of Balder and the Land of Kings and Emperors)
79. Overthinkers (Chat Admin of Londinium, Karma, and TWPAF)
80. Pallaith (Concerned NS Member)
81. Panthera Corpus Nix (Concerned NS Member)
82. PenguinPies (Concerned NS Member)
83. Prole Confederation (Concerned NS Member)
84. Pyntuma (Concerned NS Member)
85. Queen Yuno (Concerned NS Member)
86. r3naissanc3r (Admin of Europeia, The North Pacific and The Land of Kings and Emperors)
87. Red Dusk (Root Admin of Libcord
88. Ratateague (Concerned NS Member)
89. Rigel’s Light (Guardian of The West Pacific)
90. Sankami (Concerned NS Member)
91. Sciongrad (Concerned NS Member)
92. Scott VerinGuard (Admin of The Galactic Order)
93. Seven Deaths (Admin of Albion)
94. Shaqtan Islands (Concerned NS Member)
95. Shizensky (Founder and Admin of Renegade Islands Alliance)
96. Sopo (Concerned NS Member)
97. Southern Bellz (Former Delegate of The South Pacific)
98. Tancerlo (Admin of Albion)
99. The Atlae Isles (Concerned NS Member)
100. The Bruce (Founder and Admin of Wysteria)
101. The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp (Concerned NS Member)
102. The Grim Reaper (Concerned NS Member)
103. The Noble Thatcherites (Concerned NS Member)
104. The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord (Concerned NS Member)
105. Tim-Opolis (Admin of Spiritus and The Order of The Grey Wardens)
106. Todd McCloud (Admin of NSwiki.org, various NS World Fairs, and The East Pacific)
107. Typhlo (Admin of the Kingdom of Alexandria)
108. Unibot III (Concerned NS Member)
109. United Massachusetts (Concerned NS Member)
110. Vaculatestar64 (Admin and Chat Admin of the Kingdom of Great Britain)
111. Wellser (Concerned NS Member)
112. West Bengalis (Concerned NS Member)
113. Westwind (Admin of The West Pacific and Equilism)
114. Zaolat (Concerned NS Member)

(Note: I am not doing any factchecking of names or titles on this list. I am not verifying any claimed roles. I am not checking for the same person signing under multiple puppets. I am not denying anybody the ability to sign, regardless of any past behavior. 1 TG = 1 signature.)

[Eluvatar]

Thank you for collecting your thoughts in a clear, coherent, and direct manner.

This is a serious subject and deserves serious consideration. It is being given.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I am not a signatory, due to a quibble with one small part that I am not inclined to fully back. However, as an administrator of multiple NS communities for years, watching over hundreds of players, I do agree with 99% of this.

[Spode Humbled Minions]

There's a slight issue with this. In the OP, it discusses that players have spend months trying to prove or refute claims in the past.
A moderator would likely have a better idea of what to look for, but it would still be a long process. While this is an important
issue to address, it doesn't change the fact that there are only so many Moderators and so much time someone can dig though
Facebook to try to find evidence without going out of their mind.

[Malashaan Colony]

One of the points here is that there are many regional forum admins who already do the legwork. It would be significantly quicker for NS mods to take the existing research all of the signatories are more than willing to hand over and verify it. And frankly, there are a lot more NS mods than most regional forums have admins, and I'm sure there are plenty more people willing to volunteer time. The fact it might be a little tedious is nothing compared to the harms we're trying to address.

[Shazbotdom]

I find this a slippery slope argument. How would the off-site dealings be effective to what the on-site rules are? I mean, how easy would it be for someone to fake a substantial amount of information just to get someone DOSed from here?

[USS Monitor]

One of the points here is that there are many regional forum admins who already do the legwork. It would be significantly quicker for NS mods to take the existing research all of the signatories are more than willing to hand over and verify it.

We would still have to review the collected evidence.

And frankly, there are a lot more NS mods than most regional forums have admins, and I'm sure there are plenty more people willing to volunteer time. The fact it might be a little tedious is nothing compared to the harms we're trying to address.

Comparing the number of NS mods and the number of admins on one average regional forum is not a fair comparison. You're not asking us to review issues from just one offsite forum. You're asking us to review issues from ALL offsite forums.

You're also ignoring the fact that it's normal for some mods to be inactive at any given time, and that we are recruited from different communities. For example, I was recruited from NSG. NSG does not rely on offsite venues, and I have no interest in offsite forums. Then there are all the other responsibilities that we already have -- the forum reports, the GHRs, etc. Reviewing offsite evidence would be an additional time commitment on top of what we already do.

I think a lot of times, because players can't see the internal dynamics of who does what on the mod team, people underestimate how difficult it is to find mods that will stay active on a long-term basis. Too often, you get people that are active for a while, then get bored or burned out and their activity drops off. Finding people willing to volunteer time is one thing. Finding people who still want to do it after the novelty wears off is something else. And finding people who we trust as mods is a different thing, because they need to be vetted. Then sometimes the people we want as mods are not the same people that are willing to volunteer...

[Dumb Ideologies]

NS moderators cannot verify that a poster on another website is the same person as a poster on this website. They would have to "trust" people moderating external sites that the information they have provided is valid and not a smear campaign resulting from a falling out. Some of these external sites are "splinter" sites from NS set up by people with a particular agenda towards moderation and particular posters who post here.

NS moderators do not have the resources in time to police things happening on other sites, apps etc. They are already spread quite thinly. There aren't enough potential volunteers who are committed and professional enough. If NS had to widen the pool and reduce its standards or the existing moderators spread themselves even more, the quality of moderation here would suffer. Some may even choose to leave under the additional strain.

This would create an unsymmetrical system in which rule-breaking behaviour here doesn't result in bans on the other forums and sites, but mods here are expected to police and respond to the actions occurring elsewhere. It would also lead to the effective "outsourcing" of moderation to untrusted third parties who have not been vetted by the team as suitable moderators.

None of this is realistic or desirable, and if this is pursued it will create many many problems. In pursuit of addressing a few cases you create precedents that lead to an escalating workload and resultant issues that will make moderation here more patchy and so create more avenues for the bad behaviour you want to stop. A very bad idea imo.

[Glen-Rhodes]

What counts as (non-sexual) harassment? Are you using the same standard as the OSRS?

[Minoa]

I am relatively late to this, but I have been trying to be careful on what to say about what I believe is an ongoing investigation into a very serious accusation. I do not know the country where the incident took place, but I believe there needs to be a review of the framework in which off-site evidence is considered. The key points I wish to share are:

1. I believe that the privacy of both the accuser and the suspect should be protected until such allegations are proven to be true, because of broader concerns about “internet witch-hunts” (and there have been cases of people whose lives were destroyed by false allegations).

2. Ignoring allegations of harassment or sexual assault is not an option either: between 2006 and 2011, a number of British railfan forums were caught up in a very serious incident. Two men, posing as trainspotters, scoured those forums for youngsters interested in trains, and would invite them to the house where they were repeatedly raped. Had the allegations been ignored, we could have seen something much worse.

-- Minoa

[The United Providences of Perland]

This is an interesting issue and I’m glad all of this has bubbled to the surface. I myself have had interesting encounters with people related to NS. And granted, I support victims 100%. But I have two main concerns. One, evidence from the mediums of communication that NSers use (from the ones I’ve seen) like IRC, Discord, Skype, or forums can be easily faked or even just deleted. Take Discord or Skype for example. You can change your server name to anything really. So pop in a similar profile picture change your name and poof you’re someone else. I don’t use IRC often but from the few times I have it seems easily altered as well. Plus, people just edit things out anyway. My next concern is, this is a video game. The administration here HAS no power on other sites and are not law enforcement. The point of checking Facebooks and cross referencing all this isn’t their job nor should it be. That is for the police, which granted, can themselves have little power over it sometimes. But at the end of the day, this is an online video game. If your harassers don’t know you irl, I encourage people to just leave for awhile. I’m aware communities get close knit here, but online harassment has the advantage that you can walk away with no more confrontation most of the time. And if it’s to protect ones safety and health then it is worth it.

[Berethene]

If your harassers don’t know you irl, I encourage people to just leave for awhile.

Do you not see the problem with your statement that victims of this harassment are the ones who should leave the game?

That doesn't even begin to get into the issue that the predators will either try to follow them, or they will find another victim in the meantime. As long as NS main is trapped in inaction, the likelihood of a new victim being chosen is there. A new nation and an altered identity are all that is needed. Offsite it is a bit trickier once the IP is established, but all you need to be considered for another region is a new nation. Moving to new communities is not difficult, and the offsite community cannot be expected to spread the word to every other community. There is always vulnerability in the international, offsite community with this factor.

One victim leaving does not protect the other players from potential victim status.

[Ethel mermania]

Where is the police matters need to be handled by police and not moderation, button?

[Insaeldor]

If your harassers don’t know you irl, I encourage people to just leave for awhile.

Do you not see the problem with your statement that victims of this harassment are the ones who should leave the game?

That doesn't even begin to get into the issue that the predators will either try to follow them, or they will find another victim in the meantime. As long as NS main is trapped in inaction, the likelihood of a new victim being chosen is there. A new nation and an altered identity are all that is needed. Offsite it is a bit trickier once the IP is established, but all you need to be considered for another region is a new nation. Moving to new communities is not difficult, and the offsite community cannot be expected to spread the word to every other community. There is always vulnerability in the international, offsite community with this factor.

One victim leaving does not protect the other players from potential victim status.

But is that something the NS mod staff has the capability to handle when it is t related to the actual NS website and their domaine of authority? As a moderator for a discord that has a really active user base for an NS RP group I think it's up to the people who facilitate these extra NS groups to moderate situations on their count. Speaking from personal experience on the matter (dealing with a member sexually harassing another) it up to the owners of the discords, Skype, and other IRC channels to community police and help prevent these issues if they relate to nation states but aren't facilitated on the actual website were mods actually have authority on the matter. When harassment leaks over onto NS via forum posts, TG's, RMB posting, and other possible facilitators then the NS mods should get involved and handle the issue as they see fit.

[Berethene]

Where is the police matters need to be handled by police and not moderation, button?

I answer you with this:

And yes, it is insanely frustrating, alongside the fact law enforcement is still badly lagging in their ability to investigate and prosecute online criminal harassment.

Police can't do anything solid like a restraining order or any sort of charge if the players involved are not within their legal jurisdiction. There have been attempts at this, and they have failed. You can't expect the police to solve everything on this topic, because chances are that they very possibly cannot do anything.

Speaking from personal experience on the matter (dealing with a member sexually harassing another) it up to the owners of the discords, Skype, and other IRC channels to community police and help prevent these issues if they relate to nation states but aren't facilitated on the actual website were mods actually have authority on the matter.

Yes, that is all well and good, and communities do that. My point stands that the harassers involved just abandon their nations when caught and make a new identity, moving on to the next unwitting offsite community--where it all starts over, and over again. This is often serial behavior. How many people have to be exposed because even our offsite resources are not sufficient to protect more players?

I know, completely, that the chances of falsity are entirely valid concerns. However, the fact that the Mod/Admin team is discussing this issue at all indicates that they are not unaware of the dangers this involves.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Where is the police matters need to be handled by police and not moderation, button?

It's a grave deriliction of duty that Mr Barry set up these forums without first reaching agreement for the moderators to become at least auxiliary members of Interpol.

[Ethel mermania]

Where is the police matters need to be handled by police and not moderation, button?

I answer you with this:

And yes, it is insanely frustrating, alongside the fact law enforcement is still badly lagging in their ability to investigate and prosecute online criminal harassment.

Police can't do anything solid like a restraining order or any sort of charge if the players involved are not within their legal jurisdiction. There have been attempts at this, and they have failed. You can't expect the police to solve everything on this topic, because chances are that they very possibly cannot do anything.

Speaking from personal experience on the matter (dealing with a member sexually harassing another) it up to the owners of the discords, Skype, and other IRC channels to community police and help prevent these issues if they relate to nation states but aren't facilitated on the actual website were mods actually have authority on the matter.

Yes, that is all well and good, and communities do that. My point stands that the harassers involved just abandon their nations when caught and make a new identity, moving on to the next unwitting offsite community--where it all starts over, and over again. This is often serial behavior. How many people have to be exposed because even our offsite resources are not sufficient to protect more players?

I know, completely, that the chances of falsity are entirely valid concerns. However, the fact that the Mod/Admin team is discussing this issue at all indicates that they are not unaware of the dangers this involves.

You are aware that if you accuse someone of sexual harrassment, take actions based on it and can't prove you open your self up to a whole world of legal liability. You do know that right?

[Ethel mermania]

Where is the police matters need to be handled by police and not moderation, button?

It's a grave deriliction of duty that Mr Barry set up these forums without first reaching agreement for the moderators to become at least auxiliary members of Interpol.

Then they could have had really nifty badges. Just think of the nifty badges.

[Berethene]

You are aware that if you accuse someone of sexual harrassment, take actions based on it and can't prove you open your self up to a whole world of legal liability. You do know that right?

Sexual harassment is far from the only kind of predatory behavior that I am concerned about. It is merely one among many. Frankly, while it can be upsetting and traumatizing, there are worse ways that a player can be harmed.

I'm not saying that it needs to be announced, as the petition states.

So, then, what is a solution if we can't expect the police to help and the NS mods can't do anything because someone might go crying to law enforcement that a mean onsite staff took steps to protect the community from predatory behavior?

Furthermore, if a predator who is an adult goes crying to the police after being accused of trying to solicit pictures and activity from underage girls/boys, they stand to risk being found legally guilty of solicitation and possession of inappropriate images.

If you have another solution that evades the potential legal issues, I am all ears.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I answer you with this:

Police can't do anything solid like a restraining order or any sort of charge if the players involved are not within their legal jurisdiction. There have been attempts at this, and they have failed. You can't expect the police to solve everything on this topic, because chances are that they very possibly cannot do anything.

Yes, that is all well and good, and communities do that. My point stands that the harassers involved just abandon their nations when caught and make a new identity, moving on to the next unwitting offsite community--where it all starts over, and over again. This is often serial behavior. How many people have to be exposed because even our offsite resources are not sufficient to protect more players?

I know, completely, that the chances of falsity are entirely valid concerns. However, the fact that the Mod/Admin team is discussing this issue at all indicates that they are not unaware of the dangers this involves.

You are aware that if you accuse someone of sexual harrassment, take actions based on it and can't prove you open your self up to a whole world of legal liability. You do know that right?

Indeed. If people see law breaking activity on another site, they and the authorities for that site need to report to site admins, who then have a duty to report to police. If nothing comes of it, that's unfortunate but due process has been followed. No moral or legal obligation exists for the NS mods to become your private legal army to pursue offences committed off-site. That is an absolutely unreasonable demand to make of unpaid volunteers who already endure quite a workload.

[Berethene]

Indeed. If people see law breaking activity on another site, they and the authorities for that site need to report to site admins, who then have a duty to report to police. If nothing comes of it, that's unfortunate but due process has been followed. No moral or legal obligation exists for the NS mods to become your private legal army to pursue offences committed off-site. That is an absolutely unreasonable demand to make of unpaid volunteers who already endure quite a workload.

We count on authorities to protect us, and apparently there is no authority that can accomplish that. What, then, are we supposed to do? What we do now isn't working at all. This keeps happening and will keep happening, and everything is untenable here because the players are 'untrustworthy'.

What is something reasonable to ask to ensure even just a little more protection?

If we just sit here and let it all happen, NS Moderation isn't the only "complicit" body in the enabling of predators. At least players are trying to do something. The offsite admins are not paid employees, either, but they still make the effort.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Indeed. If people see law breaking activity on another site, they and the authorities for that site need to report to site admins, who then have a duty to report to police. If nothing comes of it, that's unfortunate but due process has been followed. No moral or legal obligation exists for the NS mods to become your private legal army to pursue offences committed off-site. That is an absolutely unreasonable demand to make of unpaid volunteers who already endure quite a workload.

We count on authorities to protect us, and apparently there is no authority that can accomplish that. What, then, are we supposed to do? What we do now isn't working at all. This keeps happening and will keep happening, and everything is untenable here because the players are 'untrustworthy'.

What is something reasonable to ask to ensure even just a little more protection?

If we just sit here and let it all happen, NS Moderation isn't the only "complicit" body in the enabling of predators. At least players are trying to do something. The offsite admins are not paid employees, either, but they still make the effort.

On their own forums, not other people's. This is absurd.

[Berethene]

On their own forums, not other people's. This is absurd.

So, basically, your solution is: "Yeah, everything is fine, just move along. Don't bother even trying to ask for help, because whatever happens to the communities that originate on this site but operate offsite aren't my problem and the Mods shouldn't care either. Just accept that you're on your own and put your big boy pants on."

Very helpful. I will credit the Mods with the fact that at least they are discussing it, whereas you think it doesn't matter at all.

[Ethel mermania]

Indeed. If people see law breaking activity on another site, they and the authorities for that site need to report to site admins, who then have a duty to report to police. If nothing comes of it, that's unfortunate but due process has been followed. No moral or legal obligation exists for the NS mods to become your private legal army to pursue offences committed off-site. That is an absolutely unreasonable demand to make of unpaid volunteers who already endure quite a workload.

We count on authorities to protect us, and apparently there is no authority that can accomplish that. What, then, are we supposed to do? What we do now isn't working at all. This keeps happening and will keep happening, and everything is untenable here because the players are 'untrustworthy'.

What is something reasonable to ask to ensure even just a little more protection?

If we just sit here and let it all happen, NS Moderation isn't the only "complicit" body in the enabling of predators. At least players are trying to do something. The offsite admins are not paid employees, either, but they still make the effort.

Trwce and finger the IP and Call the local cops. That is their job.

Look, I think yo ur intentions are good. There just are a lot of ramifications you are not considering. You are not a lawyer or law enforcement and neither is the moderation team. To expect them to act as one opens the site up to liability issues in jurisdictions all over the freaking world.

A more reasonable approach would be to ask the site to have his maxNess contact his legal team to suggest potential resolution to this issue

[Dumb Ideologies]

On their own forums, not other people's. This is absurd.

So, basically, your solution is: "Yeah, everything is fine, just move along. Don't bother even trying to ask for help, because whatever happens to the communities that originate on this site but operate offsite aren't my problem and the Mods shouldn't care either. Just accept that you're on your own and put your big boy pants on."

Very helpful. I will credit the Mods with the fact that at least they are discussing it, whereas you think it doesn't matter at all.

The faulty logic jump is "something has to be done, even if that 'something' is going to be ineffective, lose us moderators, and harm the site more generally by overstretching the ones that remain so that more shit gets past the radar over here".

And ultimately, yeah, what happens to communities that originate here but operate offsite *isn't* our moderators' problem - by definition it's the problem of the moderators and admins of "elsewhere", and of the appropriate legal authorities.

You can tut at those who oppose for "not doing anything" or being "complicit", but better no answer than rushing to implement """solutions""" that end up making moderation worse by impractical and unrealistic demands.