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Christian kicked out of College for his beliefs

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United Muscovite Nations
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Christian kicked out of College for his beliefs

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:28 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... are_btn_fb

A devout Christian who was thrown off a university social work course after branding homosexuality a sin on Facebook has lost a high court battle.

Felix Ngole, from Barnsley in south Yorkshire, was removed from a two-year MA course at Sheffield University in February last year after writing what the university called “derogatory” comments about gay and bisexual people.

Ngole, 39, wrote during a debate on Facebook that “the Bible and God identify homosexuality as a sin”, adding that “same-sex marriage is a sin whether we like it or not. It is God’s words and man’s sentiments would not change His words.”

He claimed that he was lawfully expressing a traditional Christian view and complained that university bosses unfairly stopped him completing a postgraduate degree. But after analysing rival claims at a trial in London this month, the deputy high court judge, Rowena Collins Rice, ruled against him.

Ngole said his rights to freedom of speech and thought, enshrined in the European convention on human rights, had been breached. His case was backed by the Christian Legal Centre, part of the campaign group Christian Concern.

But lawyers representing the university argued that he showed “no insight” and said the decision to remove him from the course was fair and proportionate.

They said Ngole had been studying for a professional qualification and university bosses had to consider his “fitness to practise”.

Ngole said he planned to appeal further, adding: “I am very disappointed by this ruling, which supports the university’s decision to bar me from my chosen career because of my Biblical views on sexual ethics.

“I intend to appeal this decision, which clearly intends to restrict me from expressing my Christian faith in public.”

The judge was told Ngole had posted comments during a debate about Kim Davis, a state official in the US state of Kentucky, who refused to register same-sex marriages. Ngole said he had argued that Davis’s position was based on the “Biblical view of same-sex marriage as a sin”. He said he was making a “genuine contribution” to an important public debate and was entitled to express his religious views.

University bosses said he had posted comments on a publicly accessible Facebook page which were “derogatory of gay men and bisexuals”.

Collins Rice said: “Public religious speech has to be looked at in a regulated context from the perspective of a public readership. Social workers have considerable power over the lives of vulnerable service users and trust is a precious professional commodity.”

The judge added: “Universities also have a wide range of interests in and responsibilities for their students – academic, social and pastoral. Where, as Sheffield does, they aspire to be welcoming environments for students from a diverse range of backgrounds, they must expect to be inclusive and supportive of that diversity.”

Officials at the Christian Legal Centre said the decision was wrong and would have a “chilling” effect.

Andrea Williams, the chief executive, said: “The court has ruled that though Mr Ngole is entitled to hold his Biblical views on sexual ethics, he is not entitled to express them. This ruling will have a chilling effect on Christian students up and down the country who will now understand that their personal social media posts may be investigated for political correctness.”


The obvious problem that I can see with this ruling is that it makes the assumption that Mr. Ngole's private views would interfere with his public practice, and is preemptively barring him from ever stepping foot in the field based on his personal religious views, rather than on any malpractice. It's very clearly discriminatory, as he hasn't done anything illegal, nor has he violated any contracts. It is simply an attempt to hurt him for his views on religious issues. You can't deny someone a service based on the assumption that they will use it wrongly, without any justification. This would be like kicking a Jew or Muslim out of a veterinary program because they think that Kosher or Halal slaughter is religiously correct.
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Eisen Wolf Reich
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Postby Eisen Wolf Reich » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:44 am

Wait hold up... He is entitled to have religious views, but not express them? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN XDDDDDDDD

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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:46 am

Seems fine to me.

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:48 am

Eisen Wolf Reich wrote:Wait hold up... He is entitled to have religious views, but not express them? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN XDDDDDDDD

It's pretty blatantly illegal, as the Equality Act in the UK makes it illegal to discriminate on the basis of religious belief, and the University of Sheffield is a public, rather than private, institution. So, this court is basically ruling that the government may refuse to provide a service (education, in this case), and presumably refuse to employ someone based on their religious beliefs, rather than on anything they have actually done.
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Postby High Qaamat » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:49 am

Clickbait title, friend. He was not kicked for being a christian, one can argue his actions are unchristian.

In fact, he was kicked out for being a hate-filled person.

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:49 am

Fartsniffage wrote:Seems fine to me.

It seems fine to you for a public institution to kick someone out for their religious beliefs? It's not like he was malpracticing, they assumed he wouldn't be fit for working because of his religious beliefs, which is pretty blatantly discrimination.
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Postby San Marlindo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:49 am

Unbelievable.

For the record, my college explicitly told all the undergraduate students that at any time their social media posts could be monitored and that what we say or photograph could result in disciplinary action, including but not limited to administrative removal.

I assume that if we post anything criminal, do nothing but call for holocaust on social media, promoted terrorism, etc we'd kind of be asking for it.

That being said, however:

High Qaamat wrote:Clickbait title, friend. He was not kicked for being a christian, one can argue his actions are unchristian.

In fact, he was kicked out for being a hate-filled person.


This guy does not seem to have been calling for the genocide of homosexuals, acts of terrorism against the state or school or targeting homosexuals, or indeed promoting violent hate crime. Repeatedly posting that you believe something goes against your religious beliefs is not sufficient grounds (in my opinion) for the school to take disciplinary action, whether I agree with your opinion or not.
Last edited by San Marlindo on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:50 am

High Qaamat wrote:Clickbait title, friend. He was not kicked for being a christian, one can argue his actions are unchristian.

In fact, he was kicked out for being a hate-filled person.

He was kicked out for his religious beliefs, not necessarily for being a Christian. This ruling could be applied to anyone who a potential provider of education thinks could be problematic, based purely on their beliefs, not on any actions.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:51 am

What was the context? Was he attacking someone in particular?
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:51 am

From the British Association of Social Workers' Code of Ethics (editing mine);

2- Respecting the right to self determination: Social workers should respect, promote and support people’s dignity and right to make their own choices and decisions,
irrespective of their values and life choices, provided this does not threaten the rights, safety and legitimate interests of others.

...

Principles: 1 Challenging discrimination: Social workers have a responsibility to challenge discrimination on the basis of characteristics such as ability, age,
culture, gender or sex, marital status, socio-economic status, political opinions, skin colour, racial or other physical characteristics, sexual orientation or spiritual beliefs.

2 Recognising diversity: Social workers should recognise and respect the diversity of the societies in which they practise, taking into account individual, family, group and
community differences.

5 Working in solidarity: Social workers, individually, collectively and with others have a duty to challenge social conditions that contribute to social exclusion,
stigmatisation or subjugation, and work towards an inclusive society.

1 Upholding the values and reputation of the profession: Social workers should act at all times in accordance with the values and principles of the profession and ensure that their behaviour does not bring the profession into disrepute.


Assuming this framework is something the university was employing in its arguments and especially considering the last, it seems pretty straightforward to me. There is no reason he couldn't necessarily hold those views in private, as long as he stayed respectful and professional. The problem is that he decided to open up on Facebook with his name and potentially professional info attached, in a public forum, and go on about homosexuality in a way that definitely can be interpreted as discriminatory. It would be the same thing if a social worker had gone on about how filthy poor people are or how disgusting Pakistanis are or whatever - as a social worker you're expected to hold to a higher code of conduct, and he didn't match up to it.
Last edited by The Widening Gyre on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Community Values » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:52 am

This is why having an actual constitutional provision on free speech is good.
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:52 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:Seems fine to me.

It seems fine to you for a public institution to kick someone out for their religious beliefs? It's not like he was malpracticing, they assumed he wouldn't be fit for working because of his religious beliefs, which is pretty blatantly discrimination.

Is it a public institution though? It's a university, he has no natural right to be there. The university can and will kick out who ever they wish.
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:52 am

Community Values wrote:This is why having an actual constitutional provision on free speech is good.

Yes but also remember that freedom of association works here as well. The university doesn't want to associate with them.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:53 am

The Widening Gyre wrote:From the British Association of Social Workers' Code of Ethics (editing mine);

2- Respecting the right to self determination: Social workers should respect, promote and support people’s dignity and right to make their own choices and decisions,
irrespective of their values and life choices, provided this does not threaten the rights, safety and legitimate interests of others.

...

Principles: 1 Challenging discrimination: Social workers have a responsibility to challenge discrimination on the basis of characteristics such as ability, age,
culture, gender or sex, marital status, socio-economic status, political opinions, skin colour, racial or other physical characteristics, sexual orientation or spiritual beliefs.

2 Recognising diversity: Social workers should recognise and respect the diversity of the societies in which they practise, taking into account individual, family, group and
community differences.

5 Working in solidarity: Social workers, individually, collectively and with others have a duty to challenge social conditions that contribute to social exclusion,
stigmatisation or subjugation, and work towards an inclusive society.

1 Upholding the values and reputation of the profession: Social workers should act at all times in accordance with the values and principles of the profession and ensure that their behaviour does not bring the profession into disrepute.


Assuming this framework is something the university was employing in its arguments and especially considering the last, it seems pretty straightforward to me. There is no reason he couldn't necessarily hold those views in private, as long as he stayed respectful and professional. The problem is that he decided to open up on Facebook, in a public forum, and go on about homosexuality in a way that definitely can be interpreted as discriminatory. It would be the same thing if a social worker had gone on about how filthy poor people are or how disgusting Pakistanis are or whatever - as a social worker you're expected to hold to a higher code of conduct.

The British Association of Social Workers is not a government body, and does not regulate the ethics of Social Workers. It's basically a union.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:54 am

Thermodolia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It seems fine to you for a public institution to kick someone out for their religious beliefs? It's not like he was malpracticing, they assumed he wouldn't be fit for working because of his religious beliefs, which is pretty blatantly discrimination.

Is it a public institution though? It's a university, he has no natural right to be there. The university can and will kick out who ever they wish.

The University of Sheffield is a public university.
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:55 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Community Values wrote:This is why having an actual constitutional provision on free speech is good.

Yes but also remember that freedom of association works here as well. The university doesn't want to associate with them.

I could also apply freedom of education here, that student passed the entrance exam and has a right to pursue education regardless of sex, race or beliefs.
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Postby Pilarcraft » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:56 am

I'd boot him too. fucking asshole.
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:56 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Yes but also remember that freedom of association works here as well. The university doesn't want to associate with them.

I could also apply freedom of education here, that student passed the entrance exam and has a right to pursue education regardless of sex, race or beliefs.

Freedom of association trumps freedom of education, if such a thing exists in the first place
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:57 am

Pilarcraft wrote:I'd boot him too. fucking asshole.

So, people should be able to just kick out anyone they don't like?
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:58 am

Ohhhh being oppressed for not being to express hate?

If the school has rules about it; sucks to be him......
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Postby Pilarcraft » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:58 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Pilarcraft wrote:I'd boot him too. fucking asshole.

So, people should be able to just kick out anyone they don't like?

They should be able to kick anyone out with a discriminatory opinion. and no.
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:59 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:I could also apply freedom of education here, that student passed the entrance exam and has a right to pursue education regardless of sex, race or beliefs.

Freedom of association trumps freedom of education, if such a thing exists in the first place

I would disagree with that, for a start I believe freedom of speech trumps freedom of association but here you have two very important rights, education and freedom of speech versus one, freedom of association.
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:59 am

So someone posted hate speech on their public facebook profile, which was probably tagged with their place of education, which decided reflected badly on them.

Couple of things:

1. This isn't that uncommon.

2. Once it's on the internet, it never really goes away. So they might have screwed up their career prospects as well; remember, employers check Facebook too.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:59 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:I could also apply freedom of education here, that student passed the entrance exam and has a right to pursue education regardless of sex, race or beliefs.

Freedom of association trumps freedom of education, if such a thing exists in the first place

As a government institution, the University of Sheffield does not have the freedom of association.
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:59 am

Hating gays seems a legit disqualifying factor for someone wanting to be a social worker.
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