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[ABANDONED] Repeal Commend The Red Fleet

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United Massachusetts
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[ABANDONED] Repeal Commend The Red Fleet

Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:47 am

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Repeal Commend The Red Fleet
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#184 | Proposed by: United Massachusetts

The Security Council:

Understanding that no moral equivalency should be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

Remembering, however, that not all who fight Nazis are autmatically commendable--one noble aspect of a region ought not to overshadow other, more unscrupulous actions,

Appalled that the Red Fleet has broken its own "policy" on many occassions by, despite what SC#184 claims, invading capitalist regions not in any way affiliated with fascists or regional enemies, these invasions including but not limited to those of:
  • United States 0f America, a politically-neutral region not affiliated in anyway with interregional politics, which was targeted merely for having embassies with a member of NSRight, and the subsequent mocking of the innocent residents thereof,
  • New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
  • Slavija, for the same reason listed above,

Distressed by the Fleet's usage of its influence in CAIN to pursue hypocritical, radical ends and to label its ideological opponents, such as Right to Life, as Nazi collaborators, ignoring its embassy collector status, as well as its involvement in the destruction of NAZI EUROPE,

Believing that it has, therefore, devolved lately to merely be an anti-capitalist region, contrary to the claims of SC#184, and has used its commendation to justify attacks on innocent, neutral regions,

Declaring that the global fight against Nazism ought to involve those from across the political spectrum, a goal which the Fleet has apparently ignored in its pursuit of radical, violent ends,

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Lauding the anti-fascist actions undertaken by The Red Fleet, and declaring these actions commendable, a designation which ought not to be applied to the organization on the whole,

Hereby Repeals Security Council Resolution #184, Commend The Red Fleet.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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The Rouge Christmas State
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Postby The Rouge Christmas State » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:51 am

It's a well written proposal but does give a sense you may have a bit of anger toward the Red Fleet. When writing resolutions it may be best to hold back emotions and base them solely on the facts alone. Tone down some of the language (mainly in the second clause) in the resolution and I think it would have a good shot at passing.
Last edited by The Rouge Christmas State on Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:52 am

The Rouge Christmas State wrote:Not sure what restrictions on hydraulic fracturing have to do with the Red Fleet, but nonetheless it's a well written proposal otherwise.

*Edit: Fixed.

Lol....I copy-pasted the formatting...Thank you

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:57 am

Declaring that no moral equivalency may be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

This reads like a mandate rather then an argument.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:59 am

Aclion wrote:
Declaring that no moral equivalency may be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

This reads like a mandate rather then an argument.

Fixed

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The Stalker
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Postby The Stalker » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:45 am

Strongly against, The Red Fleet has done a lot in fighting Nazis and fascists, and just because they raided a handful of capitalist regions hardly warrants a repeal.

Particularly when you site regions like The Trump Warriors as an example. The founder of that region is a pretty vile character who I believe is now DOS. Not sure how he got deleted in his first region, but in his follow up region The Trump Patriots of America, he harassed Hell and myself with some rather vulgar regions he set up repeatedly requesting embassies till the mods took care of him.

To me that's one more reason they deserve their Commending.
Last edited by The Stalker on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:09 pm

As you know UM, I support. Maybe you should specify NE was condemned by the SC tho for abhorrent ideology.

Telegram me when you submit this (wait for it though) and I will hopefully not feel too pazy and campaign for it
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Marilyn Manson Freaks
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Strongly against.



He harassed us in Hell.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:47 pm

Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:Strongly against.



He harassed us in Hell.

He being the Trump Warriors guy? I'm reall sorry to hear that.

Does, however, that justify action against a whole region due to the actions of one member, or was this more systematic?
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marilyn Manson Freaks
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:53 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:Strongly against.



He harassed us in Hell.

He being the Trump Warriors guy? I'm reall sorry to hear that.

Does, however, that justify action against a whole region due to the actions of one member, or was this more systematic?


The whole region of The Trump Warriors harassed us. Eventually they ended up getting deleted and raided by TWPAF.

That does justify action against that entire region, because it wasn't just the founder.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:58 pm

Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:He being the Trump Warriors guy? I'm reall sorry to hear that.

Does, however, that justify action against a whole region due to the actions of one member, or was this more systematic?


The whole region of The Trump Warriors harassed us. Eventually they ended up getting deleted and raided by TWPAF.

That does justify action against that entire region, because it wasn't just the founder.

This much I was never made aware of. Will delete.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:00 am

Still going?

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:00 am

Since you ask, I don't like the use of "reminding" to begin clauses. It sounds juvenile, though I'm not sure why. /personal preference
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:29 pm

Aclion wrote:Since you ask, I don't like the use of "reminding" to begin clauses. It sounds juvenile, though I'm not sure why. /personal preference
I think “remembering” sounds better. If the WA is writing something, it clearly doesn’t need a reminder...
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Sandaoguo wrote:GP is a den of cynics and nihilists
My opinions do not represent any NS governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), any RL governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), the CIA, the NSA, the FBI. the Freemasons, the Illuminati, Opus Dei, the Knights Templar, the Organization for the Advancement of Cultural Marxism, Opus Dei, or any other organization. Unless I say they do, in which case, there is a nonzero chance.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:49 pm

fixed

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:53 pm

“Reminding this Assembly that tolerance is a two-way street,”
Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.
Sandaoguo wrote:GP is a den of cynics and nihilists
My opinions do not represent any NS governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), any RL governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), the CIA, the NSA, the FBI. the Freemasons, the Illuminati, Opus Dei, the Knights Templar, the Organization for the Advancement of Cultural Marxism, Opus Dei, or any other organization. Unless I say they do, in which case, there is a nonzero chance.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:18 pm

Better?

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Caelapes
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Postby Caelapes » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:57 pm

oh hey, this thing again. this already failed twice, why are you back at it again?

Understanding that no moral equivalency should be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

Agreed, because there isn't any whatsoever!

Remembering, however, that not all who fight Nazis are autmatically commendable--one noble aspect of a region ought not to overshadow other, more unscrupulous actions,

Sounds like you're saying we deserve a condemnation rather than a repeal of our quite deserved commendation.

Appalled that the Red Fleet has broken its own "policy" on many occassions

Nah, dude, we haven't, and I've pointed this out to you every single time and yet here you are a year later still lying about it.

The Red Fleet's policy is that regions holding embassies with our enemy regions are valid targets, as is any region tagged "Fascist." only fascist regions and outright enemy regions are eligible for regional destruction.

The three examples you cite were tag raids, one of which was against Slavija for its part in the raid on the Congress of Armed Proletarian States, a precursor to the modern NSLeft. It's beyond me why the Security Council should take your word for it that three tag raids - out of the dozens upon dozens of operations we've organized - is enough to repeal the commendation we received for the work we did in, among other things, trashing the Greater German Reich (an operation we organized and executed with the assistance of many great comrades) and Nazi Europe (where we were the largest piling force, IIRC), and defending Anne Frank from a Nazi invasion and helping to secure The Internationale.

Distressed by the Fleet's usage of its influence in CAIN to pursue hypocritical, radical ends and to label its ideological opponents, such as Right to Life, as Nazi collaborators, ignoring its embassy collector status, as well as its involvement in the destruction of NAZI EUROPE,

Right To Life is not an embassy collector, because you have embassy requirements, unlike the other regions that we had no problem voting to accept as collectors.

We vigorously opposed RTL's designation as an "embassy collector" in part because of your founder's vehement defense of your embassy with Apartheid South Africa, a region that styles itself the "white giant of a Dark Continent" and truly supports a return to actual fucking apartheid.

Believing that it has, therefore, devolved lately to merely be an anti-capitalist region, contrary to the claims of SC#184, and has used its commendation to justify attacks on innocent, neutral regions,

Wringo wrango wrongo, bub.

Our most recent activity has been shutting down Alt Right, working to secure our allies in the Federation of Anarchist Communes when their founder left the game, defending United Socialist Republics from a Nazi invasion and helping that region secure its borders, the aforementioned work against The Trump Warriors, working with comrades in the MT Army and other organizations to shut down Union of the Fascist Nations and The Fascist State among others, defending and securing the borders of a historical leftist region United socialist states of indi, and throwing Nazis out of United Socialist and Anarchist Communes.

I actually trawled through our Fleet operations log to find the last time we targeted a capitalist-themed region. It's over a year and a half ago - March 20, 2016, when we tag-raided ACA as retribution for their invasion of The Communist Internationale, which you can read about in this RMB post: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=14739698

So even our last "anti-capitalist" raid was in response to their aggressive attack against a comrade region, and not an anti-capitalist operation.

Declaring that the global fight against Nazism ought to involve those from across the political spectrum, a goal which the Fleet has apparently ignored in its pursuit of radical, violent ends,

We've worked with people we vigorously oppose politically to destroy Nazi strongholds in this game. Do you think we agree politically with everyone who joined us in destroying GGR? Please.

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Hoping to god that the Security Council doesn't pass a resolution that includes such trite platitudes;

Lauding the anti-fascist actions undertaken by The Red Fleet, and declaring these actions commendable, a designation which ought not to be applied to the organization on the whole,

who the fuck do you think did the actions though
Last edited by Caelapes on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Tag raids hurt commendability, Misley. It doesn’t matter whether it’s an occupation or a tag raid in this case (this seems contrary to what I’ve said recently, I’ll explain). This is still a raid. It isn’t condemnable, and I don’t think anyone thinks TRF is- but it still isn’t good.

UM- I agree with Misley that the “tolerance” line should be removed.
Last edited by Fauxia on Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.
Sandaoguo wrote:GP is a den of cynics and nihilists
My opinions do not represent any NS governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), any RL governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), the CIA, the NSA, the FBI. the Freemasons, the Illuminati, Opus Dei, the Knights Templar, the Organization for the Advancement of Cultural Marxism, Opus Dei, or any other organization. Unless I say they do, in which case, there is a nonzero chance.

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Caelapes
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Postby Caelapes » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:21 pm

Fauxia wrote:Tag raids hurt commendability, Misley. It doesn’t matter whether it’s an occupation or a tag raid in this case (this seems contrary to what I’ve said recently, I’ll explain). This is still a raid. It isn’t condemnable, and I don’t think anyone thinks TRF is- but it still isn’t good.

And how do you think we are able to train our sailors and officers for the level of expertise and professionalism required to execute precision military operations against Nazi regions? Tag raids are not the end goal of The Red Fleet - it's what allows us to continue to pursue our primary mission at the high level for which we were commended.
    
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The Stalker
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Postby The Stalker » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:56 pm

Tag raids don't mean much unless they're in mass bulk.

Misley went in great detail outlining the reasons for their actions, and saying their hard earned Commending should be repeal cause of tag raids comes across as utter nonsense.

This repeal attempt seems rather petty, and motivated by a grudge than anything else.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:05 pm

I'll respond tomorrow--I haven't the time now

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Proletaire
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Postby Proletaire » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:15 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:[*]New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
[*]Slavija, for the same reason listed above,[/list]



http://udl.taijitu.org/wfe_index/?congr ... 2014-11-01

Wonder why Slavija is listed here?

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:24 am

Caelapes wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Tag raids hurt commendability, Misley. It doesn’t matter whether it’s an occupation or a tag raid in this case (this seems contrary to what I’ve said recently, I’ll explain). This is still a raid. It isn’t condemnable, and I don’t think anyone thinks TRF is- but it still isn’t good.

And how do you think we are able to train our sailors and officers for the level of expertise and professionalism required to execute precision military operations against Nazi regions? Tag raids are not the end goal of The Red Fleet - it's what allows us to continue to pursue our primary mission at the high level for which we were commended.

Tag raids also provoke conflicts with other regions, which when they respond, gives you an excuse to attack their embassies. The Red Fleets entire foreign policy seems to be designed to provoke conflict in this way. It may not be enough to condemn TRF but it isn't commendable.
Last edited by Aclion on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The North Polish Union
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Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:53 am

Proletaire wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:[*]New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
[*]Slavija, for the same reason listed above,[/list]



http://udl.taijitu.org/wfe_index/?congr ... 2014-11-01

Wonder why Slavija is listed here?

I've been a member of Slavija/Slavya in its various incarnations since starting to play NS in 2012. I can genuinely say that I've never seen Slavija/Slavya as a region actively participate in R/D in any way (there are individual members that to, but they do so with other regions/orgs); even when the Slavic Co-Operation Pact was actively opposing the UIAF over the invasion of Slavia Slavya played little to no part in its military operations.

In addition, of the major Slavic regions, Slavija/Slavya was always less communist/leftist-leaning than Slavia thanks to their lack of nostalgic Tito-loving Serbs and I find it difficult to believe that they would've participated in a military op with a region like the Communist Bloc. Slavia had some degree of military cooperation with some leftist regions but Slavya/Slavija never did.

That said, I admit that I was inactive at the time of this raid and I wasn't active on NS at all but I find it mind-boggling that Slavija/Slavya would have willingly participated in R/D at all. Are you sure you aren't conflating the various R/D-active members of Slavija/Slavia (particularly Luksusowa/Vandoosa and Kleomentia) with the region as a whole?
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