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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

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Allanea
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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:15 am

NS MILITARY REALISM CONSULTATION THREAD Vol. 11.0

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Hello everyone and welcome to the NS Military Realism thread!

In past iterations, this thread has been seen as only useful to those roleplaying ‘strictly’ realistic nations. But this is a bit of a false conception about our thread and what we do. As someone who has never roleplayed a strictly realistic MT nation, and doesn’t plan on starting, I fully believe that a knowledge of what actual military history, strategy, and tactics are like, is very useful even if you plan to write a science-fiction story, or even an outright fantasy story. To be able to worldbuild your nation (or any other thing you’d like to worldbuild), it’s better in my view to have a coherent understanding of what reality is like, before you contrive a departure from it.

As such I invite both those who aspire to ‘realistic’ roleplays and those who wish to improve the worldbuilding of their not-fully realistic nations and stories to participate in this thread. The only caveat I’d like to have is that if you plan to develop a concept for a non-realistic setting you should be clear on your goals, and don’t act in a hostile fashion towards those who point out flaws and worldbuilding holes.

To our regulars, I’d like to thank you for participating in ten editions of this thread running (now open for more than 6 years). Have fun!






Military Resources

How to create a military docrine for your nation
Allanea’s Handy Guide To Military Incompetence and Military Errors
Allanea’s Friendly Guide to Modern Infantry
Allanea’s Handy Guide to Urban Combat for Nationstates Players
Guerrilla Warfare - a Primer for Nationstates Players
Allanea’s Brief Guide to Military Sustainment/Logistics
The Nationstates Draftroom’s Military History forums
Courage - Russian military news and analysis
China Defense Blog and forum
Defense Update
Tanks and AFV news
Below the Turret Ring
Globalsecurity - best enjoyed with private browsing.
The Unwanted Blog
UK Armed Forces Commentary
ThinkDefense
Naval Analyses
Russian strategic nuclear forces
Cannons, Machine guns and Ammunition
World Guns
US missiles and guided weapons

General Nationstates Resources


Non-Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 4
Worldbuilding Questions You Should Be Asking Yourself - by Crystal Spires
The CIA World Factbook

Previous threads:

NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mk X Purps Safe Space
NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mark IX Spitfire
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08
NS Military Realism Mk. 7: NO
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread No. 6
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #5
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #4
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #3
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #1



Please, if you have suggestions for additional resources to be added there, please suggest them to me either here or by telegram!
Last edited by Allanea on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:22 am

Smooth transition indeed.

So what is everyone's feelings on the BR/AR/Carbine arguments? Should there be a place for all three in an Army and if so, what are they?
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A: Very effective
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The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG.
Same goes for Task Force Rainbow.

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:39 am

Realistically, armies will tend to issue a variety of modifications of a single 'rifle' as much as they can. (I use the word 'rifle' in parenthesis, because some people are fond of arguing that something like M4A1 is technically a carbine).

But then it's also true that a military force is sometimes not as uniform in its use of a weapon as we'd like to portray.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:53 am

I'm not a fan of the M4, it's too small for me. Even with the stock fully extended. Just got to go shooting with one yesterday and shot like shit. Thing was far too light in my hands. On the otherhand, I shot originally using an M16A2 in my BCT, and did amazing with it. I'll admit some of the fault is my own as I've fallen out of practice (they don't allow you to go to ranges normally here in Korea as is), but there's other issues I find with it too, as it is again, far too light that I actually can feel a difference, and it's much too short meaning I can't rest as far back from the iron-sights as I want to when shooting.
Beware: Walls of Text Generally appear Above this Sig.
The Teutonic Republic wrote:"Hammer" in Russian means "Dicks" in Finnish.

This can't be a coincidence
Korva wrote:Q: How effective would this thing be if we assume it would be very effective?
A: Very effective
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG.
Same goes for Task Force Rainbow.

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.
Currently Enlisted in the United States Army.

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:00 am

I'm generally fond of the shape of the long M16 rifles myself (although we still had M16A1s in my day).


But I'm not sure to what extent we can truly call all the M16 variants 'different firearms' more than 'various configurations of the same rifle' given you can change stocks and triggers and everything else around in minutes using at the absolute worst a handful of tools, and often just a pin.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:21 am

Speaking of that what does constitute a "different" firearm? Where is the line drawn? Like is it the action? Does that mean I can completely change the furniture and it's still not a "different" firearm? Is it the action and layout? Etc.

What do you people say?
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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:39 am

I'm looking over my air defense networks again, specifically division and under. Here is what I have for an outline right now.

Infantry company includes a few Mistral teams.

Regiment includes a battery of 35mm guns with more Mistral launchers, either on their own launcher device or the SPAAGs. Regiment level also includes a command post and search radar post for its firing units.

Brigade units have a combined battery of 35mm guns and SHORAD SAMs, sharing a command post and search radar as well. SHORAD is VL-Mica, with Roland being the old system still in stock/use but being phased out.

Division air defense battalion is a more capable command post and search radar pair, and several mixed firing batteries with more SHORAD and 76mm Otomatics.

Its a lot of tactical air defense.

Corps level will include Patriot/S-300 or something I have not decided yet. Maybe a copy of the Japanese Type 03 Chu-Sam instead.

Of course this is an overview. Fully armoured units will have all of this on tracked armoured vehicles. Far less equipped reserve motorized units will still be relying on towed Oerlikons, lots of Mistrals, and are probably lucky to get Rolands.
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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:47 am

Korva wrote:What is this sham?

We didn't even get to vote for Roski.


I have already lodged formal protest that his nomination was not recognized.
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Kyiv is my disobedient child. :P

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:10 am

Purpelia wrote:Speaking of that what does constitute a "different" firearm? Where is the line drawn? Like is it the action? Does that mean I can completely change the furniture and it's still not a "different" firearm? Is it the action and layout? Etc.

What do you people say?

Really depends on how your designation system works and if any modification is actually allowed.

Generally it just comes down to action and mechanism if the system itself allows ready modification.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:16 am

Crookfur wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Speaking of that what does constitute a "different" firearm? Where is the line drawn? Like is it the action? Does that mean I can completely change the furniture and it's still not a "different" firearm? Is it the action and layout? Etc.

What do you people say?

Really depends on how your designation system works and if any modification is actually allowed.

Generally it just comes down to action and mechanism if the system itself allows ready modification.

I am not asking about how a military or nation would designate it but like what the consensus is in the gun community or just your personal opinion. Like, where do I draw the line between models and a new design.

Like say I make a SKS with plastic furniture. That's the same design, right? But what if I make it bullpup? It's the same action, zero modifications to anything but the stock. But is it still the same design? Etc. etc.
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:02 am

Purpelia wrote:
Crookfur wrote:Really depends on how your designation system works and if any modification is actually allowed.

Generally it just comes down to action and mechanism if the system itself allows ready modification.

I am not asking about how a military or nation would designate it but like what the consensus is in the gun community or just your personal opinion. Like, where do I draw the line between models and a new design.

Like say I make a SKS with plastic furniture. That's the same design, right? But what if I make it bullpup? It's the same action, zero modifications to anything but the stock. But is it still the same design? Etc. etc.

There is no complete answer, it will simply come down to marketing. Most companies would call it something new but the public would call it whatever it is marketed as but follow that with "buts it's just an sks in new new clothes/drag"
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:06 am

Crookfur wrote:There is no complete answer, it will simply come down to marketing. Most companies would call it something new but the public would call it whatever it is marketed as but follow that with "buts it's just an sks in new new clothes/drag"

But where is YOUR line?
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North Arkana
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Postby North Arkana » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:09 am

Kassaran wrote:I'm not a fan of the M4, it's too small for me. Even with the stock fully extended. Just got to go shooting with one yesterday and shot like shit. Thing was far too light in my hands. On the otherhand, I shot originally using an M16A2 in my BCT, and did amazing with it. I'll admit some of the fault is my own as I've fallen out of practice (they don't allow you to go to ranges normally here in Korea as is), but there's other issues I find with it too, as it is again, far too light that I actually can feel a difference, and it's much too short meaning I can't rest as far back from the iron-sights as I want to when shooting.

I went through BCT with the M4 the whole time, so my experience was decidedly different from yours. I'm out now though, got that sweet sweet DD-214.
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Auman
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Postby Auman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 am

Purpelia wrote:
Crookfur wrote:Really depends on how your designation system works and if any modification is actually allowed.

Generally it just comes down to action and mechanism if the system itself allows ready modification.

I am not asking about how a military or nation would designate it but like what the consensus is in the gun community or just your personal opinion. Like, where do I draw the line between models and a new design.

Like say I make a SKS with plastic furniture. That's the same design, right? But what if I make it bullpup? It's the same action, zero modifications to anything but the stock. But is it still the same design? Etc. etc.


Naturally it's still an SKS. Same guts, same gun. What makes a weapon unique is the internal mechanisms that make it function and how they are assembled to make them work.

Much of it is marketing... But when you get down to the details, if a weapon is based on a design with few changes, it is simply an adapted platform.

Changing the appearance of a weapon doesn't change what it is on the inside.
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Gallia-
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NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Vol. 11.0

Postby Gallia- » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:45 pm

You should at least keep the full name in the title.

Without a gimmick in the name (although "Vol. 11.0" might be considered a gimmick), you can accommodate a practically infinite number of these threads.

Kassaran wrote:meaning I can't rest as far back from the iron-sights


The reason you aren't using a M68 CCO is...

Purpelia wrote:Speaking of that what does constitute a "different" firearm?


Whatever you want it to be.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:49 pm

Gallia- wrote:You should at least keep the full name in the title.

Without a gimmick in the name (although "Vol. 11.0" might be considered a gimmick), you can accommodate a practically infinite number of these threads.


Fair point, fixed.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:49 pm

Allanea wrote:
Gallia- wrote:You should at least keep the full name in the title.

Without a gimmick in the name (although "Vol. 11.0" might be considered a gimmick), you can accommodate a practically infinite number of these threads.


Fair point, fixed.


Ty gud sir, your spergvice is appreciated.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:51 pm

Kassaran wrote:I'm not a fan of the M4, it's too small for me. Even with the stock fully extended. Just got to go shooting with one yesterday and shot like shit. Thing was far too light in my hands. On the otherhand, I shot originally using an M16A2 in my BCT, and did amazing with it. I'll admit some of the fault is my own as I've fallen out of practice (they don't allow you to go to ranges normally here in Korea as is), but there's other issues I find with it too, as it is again, far too light that I actually can feel a difference, and it's much too short meaning I can't rest as far back from the iron-sights as I want to when shooting.

are you like michael jordan tall or what

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:52 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Allanea wrote:
Fair point, fixed.


Ty gud sir, your spergvice is appreciated.


Speaking of Spergs, I have discovered the king of nerds.

It appears Dragomirov had once written a 150-page military analysis of every war and military scene in War and Peace.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:54 pm

Allanea wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
Ty gud sir, your spergvice is appreciated.


Speaking of Spergs, I have discovered the king of nerds.

It appears Dragomirov had once written a 150-page military analysis of every war and military scene in War and Peace.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Dragomirov

?

e:

His critique of Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace attracted even wider attention.


Astound. The spectrum theory of sperglord comes full circle.

High ranking NCOs, aka "warrant officers", and high ranking officers, aka "generals", represent the strata spectra. Both are sperglords. While Pvt. Six-Packs-a-Day and Lt. Smith are Normies Until Proven Otherwise.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:59 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Allanea wrote:
Speaking of Spergs, I have discovered the king of nerds.

It appears Dragomirov had once written a 150-page military analysis of every war and military scene in War and Peace.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Dragomirov

?
.


The very same.

I have seen this book while fucking about on Ozon [the Russian Amazon equivalent] today.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

""The situation in the Mediterranean has always been difficult: In practice, either borders are opened, or immigrants drown: Almost everything else is just a matter of choosing how many people will."

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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:55 pm

Dargomirov is a secret Soviet program to distill autism into human form

Gallia- wrote:High ranking NCOs, aka "warrant officers", and high ranking officers, aka "generals", represent the strata spectra. Both are sperglords. While Pvt. Six-Packs-a-Day and Lt. Smith are Normies Until Proven Otherwise


T-thank
Last edited by Puzikas on Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:02 pm

Puzikas wrote:Dargomirov is a secret Soviet program to distill autism into human form


Sperg Onion is the greatest sperg of them all. ;~;

Puzikas wrote:
Gallia- wrote:High ranking NCOs, aka "warrant officers", and high ranking officers, aka "generals", represent the strata spectra. Both are sperglords. While Pvt. Six-Packs-a-Day and Lt. Smith are Normies Until Proven Otherwise


T-thank


*Tank.

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:08 pm

North Arkana wrote:
Kassaran wrote:I'm not a fan of the M4, it's too small for me. Even with the stock fully extended. Just got to go shooting with one yesterday and shot like shit. Thing was far too light in my hands. On the otherhand, I shot originally using an M16A2 in my BCT, and did amazing with it. I'll admit some of the fault is my own as I've fallen out of practice (they don't allow you to go to ranges normally here in Korea as is), but there's other issues I find with it too, as it is again, far too light that I actually can feel a difference, and it's much too short meaning I can't rest as far back from the iron-sights as I want to when shooting.

I went through BCT with the M4 the whole time, so my experience was decidedly different from yours. I'm out now though, got that sweet sweet DD-214.

Hail freedom! Thanks for paving the way, but yeah, I got a broke-ass company that was using the last M16A2's still at Jackson.

Taihei Tengoku wrote:are you like michael jordan tall or what

6'3" to everyone else, but apparently in the Army I'm 6'1" and two inches.
Beware: Walls of Text Generally appear Above this Sig.
The Teutonic Republic wrote:"Hammer" in Russian means "Dicks" in Finnish.

This can't be a coincidence
Korva wrote:Q: How effective would this thing be if we assume it would be very effective?
A: Very effective
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG.
Same goes for Task Force Rainbow.

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.
Currently Enlisted in the United States Army.

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