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Birth rates among Europeans / Westerners

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What are the main causes of birth rates falling across Europe/The West?

Women's increased participation in the workforce
37
15%
Lack of religiosity
17
7%
Lack of work-life balance to be able to care for a child
32
13%
Cost of bringing up a child
64
26%
Breakdown of social fabric (divorces/marriage instability/age of marriage)
30
12%
Fear of child's future (economic)
16
7%
Fear of child's future (social)
7
3%
Job insecurity or lack of career planning
14
6%
Fear of commitment
13
5%
A lax attitude to, or pressure to, abortion
14
6%
 
Total votes : 244

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Trumptonium
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Birth rates among Europeans / Westerners

Postby Trumptonium » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:07 pm

It's a well known fact that birth rates among Europeans and Westerners in general has fallen far below replacement rate levels. For globalists, environmentalists and sustainabilists, this is great news. Our planet is overpopulated and any reduction in population is welcome, in fact, it's a necessity that should be actively encouraged and pursued, as evidenced by a recent latter to Duke and Duchess of Cambridge by a San Francisco sustainable population charity urging them to not have a third child - a necessity for population replacement 100 years down the line.

For Keynesians and social democrats, this is a terrible problem. The entire economic model of a welfare state is based on the number of active contributors (economic agents engaging in profitable activity that is paid to the state) not falling below a ratio of at least 3 to 1 to economic dependents (that being persons who are net takers from the state unable to work for any reason). A reduction in the number of contributors can only lead to a cataclysmic destruction of this system: either a reneging of promises to pensioners and a reduction in their living standards (which, in countries like the UK and US, is less than half of the income of a minimum wage worker) or the raising of the retirement age. Conservative predictions for persons born today are a state pension age of about 70-72 years of age in the UK. In Japan, the situation has reached a point of desperation where the retirement age in theory should be above the life expectancy.

For nationalists, this is a cataclysmic and chronic decline of a people. We're used to hearing of history 1000 years ago and how the English fought the French, but one millenia from now, some nations won't exist. Japan is one example - Japanese people will be fully extinct within the 3rd millenium. That's a nation twice the size of Britain being reduced to an ethnic population that is identical to Christmas Island natives. A place in history.

So while population controllers are actively campaigning to reduce family sizes, governments around the world are ignoring their pleas in a desperate attempt to raise birth rates. However, most of these ideas simply don't work. Government policies range from tax incentives to a full-blown ass-handing involving year long parental leaves and cash benefits that could be mistaken for winning the lottery. But .. they don't work. The general thinking for the last 10 or so years is that the deficit in birth rates can be almost entirely blamed on the very expensive cost of bringing up children. But that type of thinking is being quickly eradicated as it has resulted in nothing short of a gigantic waste of money that failed to reach its intentions.

Take Finland. Mothers can take 16 weeks of parental leave after a baby is born. After this, one parent can stay at home until the child's third year of age with a home care allowance. A further time-splitting is offered to both parents between home and work until the child reaches second grade. Clothes intended for children and food for children is VAT free. There are no tuition fees in Finland for Finnish people, in fact if you're from a low income family they will pay for you to go. Then there's a catchy 1300 euro yearly benefit for the child. What's not to like? Well, apparently everything.
Image


So when Finland, ranked 1st in the world for Best Place to Raise a Child 2017 and one of the cheapest (relative) places to do so, struggles to raise birth rates above famine levels 150 years ago and isn't anywhere close to replacement level, what gives? Finland will lose 700 000 people by 2050, that's the entirety of Helsinki (and more) wiped out. The Pripyat of tomorrow.

Other countries have different solutions to raising their population levels to have more contributors, and the answer is simple. If you can't get babies, get adults, and especially get adults from cultures which have many babies, and the problem has disappeared by itself. Except you're not really yourself anymore, and your people don't have a shared history 500 years down the line. Sweden has taken this route, and so has Norway. Norway in 1960 had a population of 3.51m to Finland's 4.43m. Today, they're 5.3m and 5.5m respectively. A huge gap closure.

Luxembourg faced the same fate, their population exploded from 380k in 1990 to 600k today. But less than half of Luxembourgians were born in the country they now live in. So is it really Luxembourg anymore? You decide.

Few if any projects have actually raised the birth rates: common quotations both come from Russia. Firstly there was the Soviet program to tax childless men. It worked a wonder, birth rates exploded as men didn't want to pay extortionate taxes (above their already extortionate taxes) for not having a child. But it also produced the largest orphan population on the planet. Not the best option. Then we have another experience of Russia, this time under Putin. Russia now pays women to leave the workforce, and also encourages religion as part of public policy, especially natalist doctrine. September 12th is also Procreation Day in Russia, a national holiday where few go to work, and any couple who has a child on June 12th, 9 months later, wins prizes from the government, including cars, cash ($11k) and refrigerators.

Has it worked? Well, of course correlation =/= causation, but fertility rates are growing the most in Russia, at a time when they're falling unanimously in Europe. For example, in Poland and Germany, the total population for both countries is below their 1990 population. That's despite the fact that the former has sent thousands of emigrants to the latter. In Ukraine, over 6 million people have been lost in the same period. That's equivalent to a certain famous event.
Image


There's also other arguments. We have the societal agreement in Japan - low birth rates are caused by too much time spent at work, and not enough being able to be dedicated to children. Is it true? Well, there's some correlation between fertility rates and yearly working hours, but not really as it's scattered all over the place. Then there's the argument of marriages beginning too late with the average age of marriage now hitting above 30.

So, what would you do if you were in power? (The first poll is on causes, the second poll next week is for what you would do)

In my opinion, a mixture of the above policies is needed, but I think we must explore either the working time argument or the women in work argument in order to raise birth rates, which I consider a necessity.
Last edited by Trumptonium on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Trumptonium wrote:It's a well known fact that birth rates among Europeans and Westerners in general has fallen far below replacement rate levels. For globalists, environmentalists and sustainabilists, this is great news. Our planet is overpopulated and any reduction in population is welcome, in fact, it's a necessity that should be actively encouraged and pursued, as evidenced by a recent latter to Duke and Duchess of Cambridge by a San Francisco sustainable population charity urging them to not have a third child - a necessity for population replacement 100 years down the line.

For Keynesians and social democrats, this is a terrible problem. The entire economic model of a welfare state is based on the number of active contributors (economic agents engaging in profitable activity that is paid to the state) not falling below a ratio of at least 3 to 1 to economic dependents (that being persons who are net takers from the state unable to work for any reason). A reduction in the number of contributors can only lead to a cataclysmic destruction of this system: either a reneging of promises to pensioners and a reduction in their living standards (which, in countries like the UK and US, is less than half of the income of a minimum wage worker) or the raising of the retirement age. Conservative predictions for persons born today are a state pension age of about 70-72 years of age in the UK. In Japan, the situation has reached a point of desperation where the retirement age in theory should be above the life expectancy.

For nationalists, this is a cataclysmic and chronic decline of a people. We're used to hearing of history 1000 years ago and how the English fought the French, but one millenia from now, some nations won't exist. Japan is one example - Japanese people will be fully extinct within the 3rd millenium. That's a nation twice the size of Britain being reduced to an ethnic population that is identical to Christmas Island natives. A place in history.

So while population controllers are actively campaigning to reduce family sizes, governments around the world are ignoring their pleas in a desperate attempt to raise birth rates. However, most of these ideas simply don't work. Government policies range from tax incentives to a full-blown ass-handing involving year long parental leaves and cash benefits that could be mistaken for winning the lottery. But .. they don't work. The general thinking for the last 10 or so years is that the deficit in birth rates can be almost entirely blamed on the very expensive cost of bringing up children. But that type of thinking is being quickly eradicated as it has resulted in nothing short of a gigantic waste of money that failed to reach its intentions.

Take Finland. Mothers can take 16 weeks of parental leave after a baby is born. After this, one parent can stay at home until the child's third year of age with a home care allowance. A further time-splitting is offered to both parents between home and work until the child reaches second grade. Clothes intended for children and food for children is VAT free. There are no tuition fees in Finland for Finnish people, in fact if you're from a low income family they will pay for you to go. Then there's a catchy 1300 euro yearly benefit for the child. What's not to like? Well, apparently everything.


So when Finland, ranked 1st in the world for Best Place to Raise a Child 2017 and one of the cheapest (relative) places to do so, struggles to raise birth rates above famine levels 150 years ago and isn't anywhere close to replacement level, what gives? Finland will lose 700 000 people by 2050, that's the entirety of Helsinki (and more) wiped out. The Pripyat of tomorrow.

Other countries have different solutions to raising their population levels to have more contributors, and the answer is simple. If you can't get babies, get adults, and especially get adults from cultures which have many babies, and the problem has disappeared by itself. Except you're not really yourself anymore, and your people don't have a shared history 500 years down the line. Sweden has taken this route, and so has Norway. Norway in 1960 had a population of 3.51m to Finland's 4.43m. Today, they're 5.3m and 5.5m respectively. A huge gap closure.

Luxembourg faced the same fate, their population exploded from 380k in 1990 to 600k today. But less than half of Luxembourgians were born in the country they now live in. So is it really Luxembourg anymore? You decide.

Few if any projects have actually raised the birth rates: common quotations both come from Russia. Firstly there was the Soviet program to tax childless couples. It worked a wonder, birth rates exploded as men didn't want to pay extortionate taxes (above their already extortionate taxes) for not having a child. But it also produced the largest orphan population on the planet. Not the best option. Then we have another experience of Russia, this time under Putin. Russia now pays women to leave the workforce, and also encourages religion as part of public policy, especially natalist doctrine. September 12th is also Procreation Day in Russia, a national holiday where few go to work, and any couple who has a child on June 12th, 9 months later, wins prizes from the government, including cars, cash ($11k) and refrigerators.

Has it worked? Well, of course correlation =/= causation, but fertility rates are growing the most in Russia, at a time when they're falling unanimously in Europe. For example, in Poland and Germany, the total population for both countries is below their 1990 population. That's despite the fact that the former has sent thousands of emigrants to the latter. In Ukraine, over 6 million people have been lost in the same period. That's equivalent to a certain famous event.


There's also other arguments. We have the societal agreement in Japan - low birth rates are caused by too much time spent at work, and not enough being able to be dedicated to children. Is it true? Well, there's some correlation between fertility rates and yearly working hours, but not really as it's scattered all over the place. Then there's the argument of marriages beginning too late with the average age of marriage now hitting above 30.

So, what would you do if you were in power? (The first poll is on causes, the second poll next week is for what you would do)

In my opinion, a mixture of the above policies is needed, but I think we must explore either the working time argument or the women in work argument in order to raise birth rates, which I consider a necessity.

because contraceptives and abortion, I guess you can say.
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Founded:

Postby Donut section » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:11 pm

Welfare and taxation.

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:11 pm

Donut section wrote:Welfare and taxation.

when welfare can reward women for being single, such happens.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:13 pm

I'd ignore birthrates and focus on uploading our minds to immortal, perfect machines.
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:13 pm

A mix of things. First because it is expensive to have kids...as in really really expensive. Second because society no longer pushes kids as the end goal for women. Further women can now decide if they want to have kids, either through different contraceptives or through abortion. There is also the fact that kids are growing up later, and that means they will push having kids back. However biology makes that a bit harder. I am sure there are a ton of other reasons as well.
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:15 pm

Restrict access to contraception, and ban it for married couples. Offer generous cash benefits and tax incentives for having a child, require religions to preach natalism, and restrict women in the workforce. In especially dire cases, like Finland, import high fertility, high skill immigrants with the promise of generous treatment from the government. Yes, this would mean importing religious fanatics, but if liberalism is true then their children will all apostatize and be secular anyway and if it isn't then we need more religious fanatics.
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:19 pm

Diopolis wrote:Restrict access to contraception, and ban it for married couples.
Screw that also great way to make it so people who enjoy having sex with their partner and who enjoy the closeness it makes have too many children. Children they cannot afford.
Offer generous cash benefits and tax incentives for having a child
Already exist
require religions to preach natalism,
Seems rather illegal
and restrict women in the workforce.
Screw that, make it so men are restricted instead, afterall they can raise children just as well as women.
In especially dire cases, like Finland, import high fertility, high skill immigrants with the promise of generous treatment from the government. Yes, this would mean importing religious fanatics, but if liberalism is true then their children will all apostatize and be secular anyway and if it isn't then we need more religious fanatics.
...please tell me you are being sarcastic.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trumptonium
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Postby Trumptonium » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Neutraligon wrote:A mix of things. First because it is expensive to have kids...as in really really expensive.


So why are birth rates falling fastest in Finland, a country ranked best place to raise a child by World Bank this year and the cheapest (net when supported by government) place to do so? Experiences from countless countries show that the introduction of transfer payments to parents for having children does not actually raise the birth rates in itself. What it does raise is government debt. In fact, of the 20 or so countries that introduced transfer payments as a solution to birth rates alone, have all, universally, seen a continued decline in birth rates. Even those that have introduced eye-watering sums of money as a practical lottery jackpot .

Such as Poland, where a child is now worth half a minimum wage. It has become famous for last year's spike as Porsche's best growth market. I have an idea why. Have two children and it's like you're having a third adult working 40 hours a week and giving all his money to you tax free. You can pay off rent for free and after the third child you've got yourself a Porsche Cayman paid for by your neighbour.

Heck, having a child in Poland is better than investing to be the next Jordan Belfort. I am not exaggerating when I say you can pay off your entire rent just by having two children. Or an entire one month's worth of mortgage. Yet birth rates are falling. And more and more of the wrong kind are having children.
Last edited by Trumptonium on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Bod-Tibet » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Neutraligon wrote: Screw that, make it so men are restricted instead, afterall they can raise children just as well as women.

Except there are plenty of industries where men excel in and form a majority, specifically physical industries like construction, mining, farming, military, etc.

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Isn't this just a veiled "how do we stop the ethnics from outbreeding the white people" thread?

Does anyone have any reliably sourced data on how long that would even take to happen?
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Postby Trumptonium » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 pm

Vassenor wrote:Isn't this just a veiled "how do we stop the ethnics from outbreeding the white people" thread?


Should you be out of the bed at this time of the day? I don't want to call your nurse.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:28 pm

>Tfw you plan on having 3-5 kids
Don't worry OP I got this covered fam.

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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:29 pm

A number of things.
You could for example point at people like me,who want kids cannot have them do to sexual orientation/gender identity, being more common in the west. There's also more awareness at the cost of raising a child, and less of a need to have them
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Restrict access to contraception, and ban it for married couples.
Screw that also great way to make it so people who enjoy having sex with their partner and who enjoy the closeness it makes have too many children. Children they cannot afford.
Offer generous cash benefits and tax incentives for having a child
Already exist
require religions to preach natalism,
Seems rather illegal
and restrict women in the workforce.
Screw that, make it so men are restricted instead, afterall they can raise children just as well as women.

If we want people to have many children, I'd restrict the sex that has to take long periods to recuperate from it.
In especially dire cases, like Finland, import high fertility, high skill immigrants with the promise of generous treatment from the government. Yes, this would mean importing religious fanatics, but if liberalism is true then their children will all apostatize and be secular anyway and if it isn't then we need more religious fanatics.
...please tell me you are being sarcastic.[/quote]
Not at all.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Vassenor wrote:Isn't this just a veiled "how do we stop the ethnics from outbreeding the white people" thread?

Does anyone have any reliably sourced data on how long that would even take to happen?

Don't worry, I exclusively bang asians to hasten the day
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:31 pm

Vassenor wrote:Isn't this just a veiled "how do we stop the ethnics from outbreeding the white people" thread?

Does anyone have any reliably sourced data on how long that would even take to happen?

no, it is about how the Birth rate, combined with the welfare state, is unsustainable
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The Golden Circle and Boreal States
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Postby The Golden Circle and Boreal States » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:31 pm

1. Thomas Bouchard notes religiosity is heritable:
http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/dmessi ... curdir.pdf
Genetic differences cause 30-45% of measured differences in religiosity (measured via survey of reported beliefs/frequency of prayer, church attendance, personal assessment, etc.); note that generic religiosity IS heritable, but specific demonination/religion is not. Identical twins will have more similar scores on tests of religiosity than fraternal twins. Hence, genetics are clearly playing a role.

2. "Using data from the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG), we show that women who report that religion is "very important" in their everyday life have both higher fertility and higher intended fertility than those saying religion is "somewhat important" or "not important" Factors such as unwanted fertility, age at childbearing, or degree of fertility postponement seem not to contribute to religiosity differentials in fertility. This answer prompts more fundamental questions: what is the nature of this greater religiosity? And why do the more religious want more children? We show that those saying religion is more important have more traditional gender and family attitudes and that these attitudinal differences account for a substantial part of the fertility differential. We speculate regarding other contributing causes."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2723861/

#1 shows that one's disposition towards religiousness is influenced by heritable, genetic factors, #2 shows that religious people are more fertile (which is well established), we can put these two basic facts together to conclude that religiousness will become more dominant over time, absent unforseen changes in the fertility of relevant groups.

"people with no religion are projected to decline as a share of the world's population"
"For years, the percentage of Americans who do not identify with any religion has been rising, a trend similar to what has been happening in much of Europe (including the United Kingdom). Despite this, in coming decades, the global share of religiously unaffiliated people is actually expected to fall, according to Pew Research Center's new study on the future of world religions."
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... opulation/
In fact, religiosity is making a great comeback in China, as the above Pew article notes.

If irreligious people average below replacement levels, and the most religious people are well above replacement level and they pass on a genetic predisposition (tendency, but not a guarantee) towards religiosity, there's a clear route forward for religion to become a much more dominant force in society. All the progressive leftists who use birth controls and demand their government-subsidized abortions will not be able to continue to control society long into their future if they do not pass on their political and religious views via genetic code, and they aren't doing that sufficiently to retain hegemony in the long-term. Religious people were both born and made, historically, with a loosening of standards, now those with the weakest innate propensity towards religiosity have been free to opt for "alternative lifestyles" and not pass on their DNA at replacement levels. The would-be atheists of 1700 were kept within the fold by the uniformity of societal norms and pressures, by loosening religious and sexual norms, and allowing the most "cognitively liberal" people to act on their innate whims, we have allowed them to choose to die out as a genotype, as people that delay marriage, focus on personal pleasure, see abortion as the height of morality, and hate traditional gender roles are wont to do. What this means is that the most intransigent theocrats will again come to dominate society, they will
impose extremely strict norms, the Victorian era is going to look like the late Roman Empire by comparison, and perhaps after centuries if not millenia of this uniformity of thought, the selection pressure to be innately fertile and "traditional" is not a requirement when traditional lifestyles are imposed on everyone, over time, you would expect a sort of "decay" where the innate predisposition to religiosity weakens over time because the least innately religious are not allowed to act on their idiosyncracies, thereby selecting themselves out of the gene pool.

In short, in 200 years, noone is going to mess with the Amish, because they're all dead.

-

From txt file on my computer, sums up what will happen.

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Iridencia
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Postby Iridencia » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:35 pm

There are too many damn babies in this world, not not enough. And who the hell really still cares if certain hair and skin colors disappear someday in some unforeseeable future? It's time to grow up and stop caring about that petty shit. We'll live jut fine without blonde people, we won't be nearly so fine with our resources being spread thinner and thinner.

As for your poll: How about, "Recent realization that children aren't necessary to have a fulfilling life because we're not all a bunch of peasant farmers living on the edge of survival anymore"? The only people who should be having kids are people who actually want kids, not people who feel like they have to. That causes a worse culture, not a better one.
Last edited by Iridencia on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby The Golden Circle and Boreal States » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:38 pm

Iridencia wrote:There are too many damn babies in this world, not not enough. And who the hell really still cares if certain hair and skin colors disappear someday in some unforeseeable future? It's time to grow up and stop caring about that petty shit. We'll live jut fine without blonde people, we won't be nearly so fine with our resources being spread thinner and thinner.

That's not going to work out for you.

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:39 pm

The Golden Circle and Boreal States wrote:
Iridencia wrote:There are too many damn babies in this world, not not enough. And who the hell really still cares if certain hair and skin colors disappear someday in some unforeseeable future? It's time to grow up and stop caring about that petty shit. We'll live jut fine without blonde people, we won't be nearly so fine with our resources being spread thinner and thinner.

That's not going to work out for you.


How so?
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:39 pm

Bod-Tibet wrote:
Neutraligon wrote: Screw that, make it so men are restricted instead, afterall they can raise children just as well as women.

Except there are plenty of industries where men excel in and form a majority, specifically physical industries like construction, mining, farming, military, etc.

And there are plenty where women excel.
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Sanctissima
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Postby Sanctissima » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:39 pm

Iridencia wrote:There are too many damn babies in this world, not not enough. And who the hell really still cares if certain hair and skin colors disappear someday in some unforeseeable future? It's time to grow up and stop caring about that petty shit. We'll live jut fine without blonde people, we won't be nearly so fine with our resources being spread thinner and thinner.


The birth rate is exceedingly high in the Third World.

In particular, countries like India and China.

In countries that are typically seen as part of the West, this is not the case. Birth rates are declining, rapidly.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:40 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Iridencia wrote:There are too many damn babies in this world, not not enough. And who the hell really still cares if certain hair and skin colors disappear someday in some unforeseeable future? It's time to grow up and stop caring about that petty shit. We'll live jut fine without blonde people, we won't be nearly so fine with our resources being spread thinner and thinner.


The birth rate is exceedingly high in the Third World.

In particular, countries like India and China.

In countries that are typically seen as part of the West, this is not the case. Birth rates are declining, rapidly.

I am not sure I would call China third world.
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Sanctissima
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Postby Sanctissima » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:41 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
The birth rate is exceedingly high in the Third World.

In particular, countries like India and China.

In countries that are typically seen as part of the West, this is not the case. Birth rates are declining, rapidly.

I am not sure I would call China third world.


Eh, in terms of actual living standard for the general population, it is.

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