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Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you like that Catalonia becomes a State?

Yes
541
56%
No
310
32%
I don't know /never mind
116
12%
 
Total votes : 967

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Catlander
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Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

Postby Catlander » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:04 am

Image

At next October 1, the catalan people want to celebrate a referendum to decide their future (become a new state or stay in Spain). The spanish goverment forbid all trying to do it. They consider that Catalonia must remain spanish because the spanish constitution law rejects it.

That Constitution recognizes Catalonia like 'nationality' but their people can"t to vote their own future into Spain, it's all right (by some democrat people) to be loyal with The Law in a 'usual' country, sure!, BUT......

It's long to explain the context about all.... in 1975 Franco dies, all franquist system still stand in the dark of power and they co-write our Constitution, the current one!. It was a necessary condition for them to relinquish power and recycle themselves into democracy. In Spain IS NOT POSSIBLE a trial againts Franco crimes from his dictatorship. The victims of the Franco regime still can't dignify their dead since the civil war!. The PP is heir of that regime. Now the franquists (their grantchildren) are in great lobbies of Energy, Banks, Building, Communication, TV, etc. All this lobbies give money to PP of Mariano Rajoy to stand in the power. Great Corruption!

Popular Party (PP) of Mariano Rajoy has militants leading the Constitutional Court, Parliament, Bank of Spain, IBEX35 (spanish stock market), Defensor del Pueblo (People Lawyer), etc. All institutions of State are puppets from PP. Also too the Top newspapers: ABC, El Pais, El Mundo, La Vanguardia, La Razón is left or right-left supporting to PP againts Catalonia.

All I told before is needed to understand the reason why the catalans rejects this "Spanish Constitution", this "democracy" and this spanish "State", because everything in spanish State it's a great joke of democracy. A fake.


Ask yourself: How is possible that International Justice NEVER sentenced the franquism?

We will need international support to get our independence from spanish state. But what do you think about it?

Related links:
[BBC News]Catalonia's push for independence from Spain

[youtube]Barcelona Bussines: capital of Catalonia

NS nations Poll
    VOTERS (IN PROGRESS): 11
    -YES 6
    -NO 3
    -NOT SURE/NO MATTER: 2
Last edited by Farnhamia on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Reason: Changed title to show that this is now a megathread

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Central European Commonwealth
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Ex-Nation

Postby Central European Commonwealth » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:14 am

Ideally, yes. I'd rather see independence for both Catalonia as well as Caledonia rather today than tomorrow.

Oh, and Partido Popular should be banned, as they're basically nothing more than neo-Franquist scum.

Also, the Catalonian national anthem is one of the best in Europe. Especially it's lyrics :D
Last edited by Central European Commonwealth on Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:18 am

Catlander wrote:...In Spain IS NOT POSSIBLE a trial againts Franco crimes from his dictatorship. The victims of the Franco regime still can't dignify their dead since the civil war!. The PP is heir of that regime. Now the franquists (their grantchildren) are in great lobbies of Energy, Banks, Building, Communication, TV, etc. All this lobbies give money to PP of Mariano Rajoy to stand in the power.

Popular Party (PP) of Mariano Rajoy has militants leading the Constitutional Court, Parliament, Bank of Spain, IBEX35 (spanish stock market), Defensor del Pueblo (People Lawyer), etc. All institutions of State are puppet from PP. Also too the Top newspapers: ABC, El Pais, El Mundo, La Vanguardia, La Razón is left or right-left supporting to PP againts Catalonia.

Who the fuck am I supposed to trust, then? That 20-foot statue of Alec Stewart just down the road?
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Robosia
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Postby Robosia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:23 am

Yes, definitely.
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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:25 am

No. Catalans owe their allegiance to His Catholic Majesty the King of Spain. Catalan separatists are traitors to the Spanish Crown. They have no right to secede.

On the other hand, I do support autonomy for Spain's traditional constituent nationalities, Catalonia included. The repression of regional identities under the Francoist regime was unjustified, but Catalans today are not oppressed in any realistic way.
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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:29 am

Yes, and retroactively revoke the Spanish world cup 2010 title because they fielded Catalans on the pitch. Give said title to the runner up.
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Xibei-San-Ma
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Postby Xibei-San-Ma » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:32 am

If people want it, and vote for that in referendum, sure.
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Central European Commonwealth
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Postby Central European Commonwealth » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:36 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:No. Catalans owe their allegiance to His Catholic Majesty the King of Spain. Catalan separatists are traitors to the Spanish Crown. They have no right to secede.


Catalans "owe" nothing to no-one because someone happens to be Catholic and inbred as fuck as most "Majesties" go. Royalty deserves in my opinion, as the Catalans put it; a "Bon cop de falç!"
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:08 am

What does the ICC have to do with this?
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Catlander
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Postby Catlander » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:29 am

Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:What does the ICC have to do with this?

If ICC doomed Franco (in 1945) -> Spain could have been a real democracy -> PP could have been different -> Catalonia could have been celebrated a legal referendum looks like Scotland, Quebec, etc. (today not)
Last edited by Catlander on Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Storhjaltland
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Postby Storhjaltland » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:55 am

Ehhh, normally I dislike balkanizing current states for the sake of small loud minorities, but Catalonia is already autonomous and actually quite large, so... yeah, go for it.

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Mariarty
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Postby Mariarty » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:05 am

I'm a Catalan residing in Navarre, some people think we are from the Basque Country, and in part is true, but only in culture, and not all Navarre. It's very ironic to see the anticapitalists of the CUP supporting a movement that was, more or less, introduced by Jordi Pujol, a corrupt ex-president of Catalonia. Catalonia was never been a colony or something like that, it's an equal community, it should be treated equal, in the good things, and in the bad things. ¡Viva Cataluña! Visça Espanya!
So, my vote is no.

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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:10 am

Catlander wrote:
Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:What does the ICC have to do with this?

If ICC doomed Franco (in 1945) -> Spain could have been a real democracy -> PP could have been different -> Catalonia could have been celebrated a legal referendum looks like Scotland, Quebec, etc. (today not)


Franco died in November 1975; the ICC was established over the period 1998-2003. The ICC was therefore incapable of taking action against Franco during his lifetime, never mind in 1945.

The possibilities seem to be that A) you're confused over what the ICC is, B) you have a poor grasp of the development of international criminal / humanitarian law post-1945, C) or you're accidentally using a Catalan acronym that's confusing the non-Catalan speakers via its resemblance to the English acronym for 'International Criminal Court'.

This is speculation on my part, but you might, perhaps, be confusing the ICC with the International Military Tribunal that oversaw the Nuremberg Trials from November 1945. However, as Spain wasn't a belligerent during the Second World War, there was never any scope for Franco to stand trial under that process.


Edit:

I see that I missed a crucial part of your OP:

Ask yourself: How is possible that International Criminal Court NEVER doomed the franquism?


And the answer is simple: the International Criminal court wasn't founded until more than 20 years after Franco's death.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 am

If the majority of the population wants independence, let them.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:14 am

Catlander wrote:Ask yourself: How is possible that International Criminal Court NEVER doomed the franquism?

1."sentenced", not "doomed".
2.It is possible because the ICC was instituted in 1998 and started working in 2002. That is some 20 years after Franco's death. Do your own research!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... inal_Court

We will need international support to get our independence from that criminal state.

Seriously, are you calling an EU and CoE member country a "criminal state"?
I assume that you would be looking for support from more humane countries then. Like, dunno, Sudan, North Korea and Myanmar?

With such posts you're not doing the cause of an independent Catalonia a great service.
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FelrikTheDeleted
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:17 am

Would I like for Catalonia to become a state? I couldn't care less, tbh. If they do declare independence, all I know is, I won't step in if the Spanish decide they don't want them to be independent (of course, with a couple exceptions).
Last edited by FelrikTheDeleted on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Trigori
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Postby Trigori » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:20 am

What is it with this trend of wanting to balkanise old unions? Increased autonomy would suffice in my opinion. Destabilizing anything is a bad idea.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:26 am

Catlander wrote:
Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:What does the ICC have to do with this?

If ICC doomed Franco (in 1945) -> Spain could have been a real democracy -> PP could have been different -> Catalonia could have been celebrated a legal referendum looks like Scotland, Quebec, etc. (today not)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_c ... ndum,_1978
Over 95% of the Catalan voters approved the 1978 Constitution, which states that the unity of the Spanish Nation is indissoluble.

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

Why do you hate the Catalan voters?
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Catlander
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Postby Catlander » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:34 am

fixed some anachronic and basic english terms (I though that ICC works since 1945, sorry).

@Rissotia:
Choose between

a) Fascists that will became to the Democracy ( ONLY if they will be amnestied for their crimes in a special law in parliament) and after will fund a clean politic party to prepare the EU entry, etc.

or

b) Do not give up the power, will raise another dictator and be happy.
Last edited by Catlander on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ritrinik
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ritrinik » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:36 am

That independentism is going too far. If the Generalitat does not negotiate with the central government, a unilateral declaration would be the dead of catalonia because it would not have international recognition
Last edited by Ritrinik on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Secundus Imperium Romanum
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Postby Secundus Imperium Romanum » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:37 am

I, while defending monarchies to a certain extent, especially the european crowns, understand that most of the catalan people want their independence and because this i support the moviment. The Spanish government is sinking in debt and is sucking up the little money that the states gain by bogging down even more in this crisis, but caution is needed between the two sides, since some apanish separatist (galicia cof cof) movements are only revolutionary communists against the crown or the right in itself.
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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:42 am

Yeah, a state in a United States of Europe.
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Polar Svalbard
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Postby Polar Svalbard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:45 am

I have no idea what you were rambling on about for most of that, but in regards to the title... no, Catalonia should not become a state. It sets a dangerous precedent and quite frankly, in the modern world, an unnecessary one.
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Ritrinik
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ritrinik » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:46 am

Secundus Imperium Romanum wrote: since some apanish separatist (galicia cof cof) movements are only revolutionary communists against the crown or the right in itself.


As a Galician I can confirm that
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Polar Svalbard
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Polar Svalbard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:47 am

Risottia wrote:
Catlander wrote:If ICC doomed Franco (in 1945) -> Spain could have been a real democracy -> PP could have been different -> Catalonia could have been celebrated a legal referendum looks like Scotland, Quebec, etc. (today not)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_c ... ndum,_1978
Over 95% of the Catalan voters approved the 1978 Constitution, which states that the unity of the Spanish Nation is indissoluble.

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

Why do you hate the Catalan voters?

Literally second most in the whole of the country in support of the Constitution.
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