[DEFEATED] Against Political Discrimination

[Excidium Planetis]

You do realize that it was an OOC comment? But the new draft will let you oppress prisoners and other criminals, so it should make you happy.

I don't think it counts as oppression to not let felons vote to reduce their own sentences.

To address something that was TG'd to me... Criminal history and previous convictions would not, by definition, be considered private matters, as they will have been dealt with by public institutions, such as police and/or the judicial system and possibly imprisonment.

Maybe you should have defined this obviously-going-to-be-questioned term?

I can't think of any kind of reasonable reading of the basics of how resolutions function, that would make repealed ones affect anything that comes after they were repealed.

Considering there is specifically a rule about this, I disagree. I don't know if this resolution does that, but a resolution could.

This proposal was not written nor rushed to block anything, least of all Tinfect's proposal, as I got his nod of approval before submitting this.

Well, we all knew Bitely was wrong, anyways.

This does not ban theocratic ideology, it merely makes it illegal to stop non-religious people from voting if the theocracy in question is a democracy.

Charter of Civil Rights already does this. I can't imagine any reasonable good faith interpretation that would allow someone to consider not being religious as a compelling practical purpose to prevent participation in democracy.

[Araraukar]

I don't think it counts as oppression to not let felons vote to reduce their own sentences.

OOC: Unless your nation holds a direct referendum on that, how could they?

Maybe you should have defined this obviously-going-to-be-questioned term?

Because I thought it was obvious. But it is spelled out in the new try.

I can't imagine any reasonable good faith interpretation that would allow someone to consider not being religious as a compelling practical purpose to prevent participation in democracy.

Ahem. Clause 2.d.

[Excidium Planetis]

I don't think it counts as oppression to not let felons vote to reduce their own sentences.

OOC: Unless your nation holds a direct referendum on that, how could they?

In California, we do. We just passed a proposition in 2014 reducing criminal sentences by reclassifying some non-violent felonies as misdemeanors.

Ahem.

Well, I can't imagine why Auralia would consider it a valid reason to prevent voting. Holding office, perhaps, but really... can you actually know if someone is atheist or not?

[Araraukar]

OOC: Unless your nation holds a direct referendum on that, how could they?

In California, we do. We just passed a law last year reducing criminal sentences by reclassifying some non-violent felonies as misdemeanors.

OOC: Well, like I said before "maybe you need better laws". Although, considering what a CF the USA prison system and judicial system are, I'm not going to comment on that any more, to avoid this turning into mini-NSG on prisoners' rights.

can you actually know if someone is atheist or not?

[singsong voice]Thiiis iiis myyy aaarguuumeeent.[/singsong voice]

Unless you have a nation of mindreaders, and I'm sure we have one somewhere (or someone will make one now that I said it, but that's the recursive nature of this place)...

[NovoUnitopius]

OOC: I'm not even American, for the person who talked of "American politics and mudslinging".

I'm stating that for rulers who institute oppressive politics in their own countries, and run theocratic dictatorships (for a RL example, see ISIS controlled territories in Syria and Iraq, where Islam as a religion isn't the problem, but the "belief system" of a select few extremists is), they don't give their own people a voice, and they are, arguably committing CRIMES against humanity, so why should criminals and rulers who don't give their own people a vote, be given a vote in the WA?

This is not against people who have any kind of tolerant or benevolent religious society as part of their founding principle of their nation. This is my argument as to how this proposal is too broad and vague for me to vote for it, as it's being currently presented.

No COUNTRY can be said to have "personal and private" belief systems that the rest of the WA is not allowed to make any judgments on whatsoever. If that were the case, a country could claim it's their religious belief that they can raid neighboring regions and enslave the population... That's a legitimate argument, as the RL Bible actually says you can take slaves from and raid neighboring nations.

I stand by my claim that this is too broad a resolution to gain my support, however, I did offer to help rewrite it privately in a telegram earlier.

[Albrenia]

As for "how do you know if someone is atheist", many people public identify themselves as such, or will be wrongly or rightly accused of it. As human history shows, mind reading is not needed for crimes to be done to a particular faith, or lack thereof.

[Araraukar]

OOC: I stand by my claim that this is too broad a resolution to gain my support, however, I did offer to help rewrite it privately in a telegram earlier.

OOC: You did? I'll have to check PPU's TGs... after I've slept minimum of 8 hours...

And, no offence, but unless you're a puppet account of someone who knows their way around this forum... no thanks.

(If you're wondering why I'm talking to you like this on this account, check the forum siggy in the OP post of this thread. )

As for "how do you know if someone is atheist", many people public identify themselves as such, or will be wrongly or rightly accused of it. As human history shows, mind reading is not needed for crimes to be done to a particular faith, or lack thereof.

OOC: Yeah, but the point is that without being able to read someone's mind, you can't know their actual religious beliefs. You're perfectly able to go through the motions required to belong in a church without actually believing in any of it, as I know from personal experience. EDIT: "Crimes done to a particular faith"?

[Albrenia]

OOC: Basically any atrocity which focused on people of a particular faith. To use the obvious example, Nazis had ways other than mind reading to determine who was a target.

Also, I imagine there's a difference between a secretly faithless Pope (which I'm sure there have been at least a few) and a Pope who loudly proclaims his undying service to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[NovoUnitopius]

OOC: I stand by my claim that this is too broad a resolution to gain my support, however, I did offer to help rewrite it privately in a telegram earlier.

OOC: You did? I'll have to check PPU's TGs... after I've slept minimum of 8 hours...

And, no offence, but unless you're a puppet account of someone who knows their way around this forum... no thanks.

(If you're wondering why I'm talking to you like this on this account, check the forum siggy in the OP post of this thread. )

As for "how do you know if someone is atheist", many people public identify themselves as such, or will be wrongly or rightly accused of it. As human history shows, mind reading is not needed for crimes to be done to a particular faith, or lack thereof.

OOC: Yeah, but the point is that without being able to read someone's mind, you can't know their actual religious beliefs. You're perfectly able to go through the motions required to belong in a church without actually believing in any of it, as I know from personal experience. EDIT: "Crimes done to a particular faith"?

OOC: I'm not a puppet account, and I am new here, however I'm someone who has quite a bit of experience with law enforcement IRL and working with law enforcement agencies, government agencies, courts, etc., I'm extremely familiar with the language of real world legal systems, so I'd be more than happy to help write up a proposal that is much more clear while still maintaining the spirit of the original proposer's intent. However, if offering my help is somehow offensive, then the offer is withdrawn, however my vote against the proposed legislation is not. I can only vote on how the legislation is written, not on it's unexpressed or in-articulated, meant-to-be-intuited intent.

[Araraukar]

OOC: I'm not a puppet account, and I am new here

OOC: Welcome to the GA forum then!

The At Vote threads are always a bit mad, but partaking the drafting threads (titles have DRAFT in them) makes for a bit softer landing for a newbie.

However, if offering my help is somehow offensive, then the offer is withdrawn, however my vote against the proposed legislation is not.

OOC: It's not offensive, it's just that the GA has a very specific set of rules and requirements that often have very little to do with Real Life. Even (or perhaps especially) with RL legislation. But linked in the first post of this thread is the new attempt (since it looks like this will fail with similar percentages to the Scottish independence referendum in 2014), where feedback is welcomed.

I suggest you read the proposal rules first, in detail. They can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=159348

And have a look at the passed resolutions, which can be handily found here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30

---

OOC: Basically any atrocity which focused on people of a particular faith. To use the obvious example, Nazis had ways other than mind reading to determine who was a target.

OOC: Yeah, with ethnicity and language, and also with neighbours turning people in for rewards. And still quite a few Jews survived even in Nazi Germany by pretending to be ethnic Germans, so obviously it's not a very good example for your side of this argument.

However, what does an ethnic cleansing have to do with letting everyone vote in a democratic election?

Also, I imagine there's a difference between a secretly faithless Pope (which I'm sure there have been at least a few) and a Pope who loudly proclaims his undying service to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

...would be cool to see that happen though.

But, again, how would you know the difference between a pope who really really believes that they're speaking for the god, and a pope who only wanted power and doesn't believe in anything but money and luxuries? Both can go through the same rituals and give the same speeches.

[FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever]

Let it be known that FARW only opposes this legislation because it is too vague, therefore leaving excessive room for interpretation and abuse.

[ArstotzkaBestCountry]

The Glorious High Administrator makes a statement.

It does my heart good to see this piece of toilet paper get flushed. I personally wish good tidings to those whom sided with reason over emotion.

[Bitely]

It ain't vague, somewhat incomplete, but I voted for. Won't pass unfortunately.

Individual nations support, but Delegates are stomping on it

OOC: Because Bitely excluded delegates in his tg list. Probably just a mistake, though one could make the argument that he's doing it so there would be outcry against allowing delegates to cast multiple votes.

Nation is already secular here, so why bother?

Teran Saber: "Because your nation isn't the only world assembly member, ambassador."

(Bold mine)
And... Someone finally got something right.

[Epicus Communis]

Why was this vote extended?

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

OOC: Because Bitely excluded delegates in his tg list. Probably just a mistake, though one could make the argument that he's doing it so there would be outcry against allowing delegates to cast multiple votes.



Teran Saber: "Because your nation isn't the only world assembly member, ambassador."

(Bold mine)
And... Someone finally got something right.

OOC: Wow, first time I've ever seen a potential conspiracy actually be the right answer. Kind of a fools errand, though. If you're trying to change the game itself you should probably take the issue to the mods rather than using a proposal to cause a stir.

[States of Glory WA Office]

(Bold mine)
And... Someone finally got something right.

OOC: Wow, first time I've ever seen a potential conspiracy actually be the right answer. Kind of a fools errand, though. If you're trying to change the game itself you should probably take the issue to the mods rather than using a proposal to cause a stir.

OOC: I'm just waiting for someone to send a campaign TG to Delegates telling them to vote one way and then to send a campaign TG to non-Delegates telling them to vote the other way.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

OOC: Wow, first time I've ever seen a potential conspiracy actually be the right answer. Kind of a fools errand, though. If you're trying to change the game itself you should probably take the issue to the mods rather than using a proposal to cause a stir.

OOC: I'm just waiting for someone to send a campaign TG to Delegates telling them to vote one way and then to send a campaign TG to non-Delegates telling them to vote the other way.

OOC: I'd be tempted to do it on a far less important issue if I had the stamps, just for the lolz. I wouldn't actually do it, though.

[Araraukar]

OOC: I'm just waiting for someone to send a campaign TG to Delegates telling them to vote one way and then to send a campaign TG to non-Delegates telling them to vote the other way.

OOC: Well, now that we know the TG harassment can work... Stamps aren't that expensive and throwaway accounts are easily made. If it's not against the rules, it's now a new weapon to use.

Btw, Bitely, I honestly hate you now and will actively campaign against anything you might ever try to pass.

[Tinfect]

OOC: Well, now that we know the TG harassment can work... Stamps aren't that expensive and throwaway accounts are easily made. If it's not against the rules, it's now a new weapon to use.

Btw, Bitely, I honestly hate you now and will actively campaign against anything you might ever try to pass.

OOC:
Yeah... it's one thing to try and block legislation you dislike, it's another to tank someone else's draft in an intentional effort to subvert and sabotage the voting system.

[Potted Plants United]

"Against Political Discrimination" was defeated 8,721 votes to 6,289.

OOC: Thank you to everyone who voted for this, including

Drugged Monkeys, Enchanted Oasis, The United Dark Republic, Ravnabbor), Austerain, Mikeswill, Ramsea, The Salaxalans, Gay Armies, Imperial Eagle, Kronomia, Llorens, Parkplace, Democratic Republic of Cacusia, Andromedian, The Greater American Midwest, Kostemetsia, Goolsbee, Cresenthia, New Waldensia, Enclave of Soviet Germany, Taprobana, Independent States of the Atlantic, Vetega, Orioni 2, NovaTora, Hydroponic Nation, Phoenix Coalition, Falcania, Gray Army, Republic of British Russia, The Great Lion, Vanke, Unia Freterland, Greater Cesnica, The New True Cross, New Porto Rico, Alistia, Abdoa, Ozwald, Raterepublik Prussia, Wolfgramnation, Jumhuriyat al Iraq, Crump, Sievar, United Furry Alliance, Bitlia, Nebelsbad, Uruguistan, The Cafeteria Catholics, Odinburgh, Helaw, Sophia Federation, Aptolia, Reillysland, Australian Republic, Drawkland, Nouveau Edimbourg, Rossijskaja Federacija, Grantziska, Pastaonia, I Wattinrae Legion, Arden and Paiden, Parlmone, Samogitias, Republica de la nova catalunya, Kalix, Great Leeston, Rearlad, Fairstone, Vampmekelna, Grid Athenia, Artidax, Bettisia, The Marza, Bjornguard, Atrides, Jamtastica, New French Lower Canada, Kwabena Kingdom, The Peoples Republic of Great Britain, Hadhari, Kindjal, Acelandinisia, The United States of Patriots, Palgaron, The Ancient World, Viscondy, Rahul Raghuraman, Swoodle, Universal Church Of Truth, Capetola XII, Lascall, Zergadnkastan, Logic Gate, Crisisies, Matrov, The Martelex Islands, Kalsland, Spookane, Union of Caplis, The most Peaceful Land of Paisland, Minovdigon, Very Good Lesbians, Jazz Commies and Sexy Astrophysicists, Arkeyana, Constantine Lambros, Arthropol, Foozelz, Junian, Vestovia, Frigidopia, Whackastan, Psylania, KlamathAgency, Sweepland7, Zaquardia, Columbian Patriots, Noricstead, Dannfahl, Nord-Norden, Hatay, Sato no Kumogakure, The United Provinces of Leguria, Respected people, Nuwewereld, Reformed Waz Danagermert, Royal Newland, Grenopia, Libertarian North America, Hara Berezaiti, Tarper, Clarcia, Omniabstracta, Darda Neuhar, Federated Island States, Skyonder, Chuukango, Thylacinus, Poseidons Depth, Kahootology, The Akasha Colony, Mirabilan, Prairie Township, Nueva Olivos, ROTIV, Rausten, Imperial Star Ships, Heater123landstronk, Dylan Murdoch, Praepotens, Gulfnesia, Camicon, Zombiedolphins, Roots, Thunria, Eltandis, Alexandria-Plotonia, Cruzh, Sciencistan, Neo Byzantium, Dvaistic Republic of Serbia, Comackia, Lower Fobba Sirey, Pilack, Calcaterra, Rzeczpospolita Krakowska, Keshiland, The Central Shadow Nation, Soroya, New Scotoho, Al Hiwariyya al oula, Cute Black Cats, Grigia, Canamerica, Sotruenia, Lux Dominion, Metalvania, 11 Templar Knights, Proctopeo, Astra Pax, Kyrptonn, Fallionas, Gilgeria, Maycennoy, Iffria, United American Soviets, Deterinal, Ptbsweet, Dakotarese Imperial States, Legendary Magus, Soviet Canuckistan, New Orleans II, Tengu Minor, Amaterasu-Yoshimitsu, Cobandia, SpainMarc, Lehqhbraot, Mys Gemyelo, Terra and Cael, Palsada, The great Beaver, Republic of Bukidnon, Senpato, Asmee, LES AIBRES, Merma, Zevsterland, Exalbuia, Ilandisnice, Nord Gutse, Montchevre, Usual People In Life, The Xenopolis Confederation, Arconia Defender, Philippineapple, Brabodos, Aincrad Alliance, Karamiko, Republican Republic of Republica, Indocia, Republica Federal de Catalunya, Whovian Tardisia, Gaiah, Schmus, The Glorious Democratic Counsel of Maris, Adorable Kittens, Peoples Perthshire, New Abbey, Mohillium, New Grenda, Nyterria, Edenis, The Seven Cities of Antillia, Jasque, Ivanduardo, Zoltani, Dark Crusade Games, Lacovia, Teragrina, Widestone, Aleutian Isles, Vaplania, Western Appensopia, Republic of Quail, Autonomous Columbia, Tranquilion, Arouna, Olea Europea, Vasileresia, Bolysus, Europe and Oceania, Guargu, Gan New, Arshan, Australia Mk 2 Electric Boogaloo, Voljundok Representative, Maxemia, Yiffania, Polariaa and Empire of New Norway

and in entirety all of the 3,970 individuals.

Additionally, I have a new attempt under drafting, where I have tried to address most of the issues that people seemed to have with this one. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=421795

And lastly I would like to let everyone know that I never campaigned for this resolution, not once. Any campain telegrams you may have received, with arguments for or against, were sent by people who very likely did not want this to pass, despite possible protestations otherwise.

[Bitely]

OOC: Well, now that we know the TG harassment can work... Stamps aren't that expensive and throwaway accounts are easily made. If it's not against the rules, it's now a new weapon to use.

Btw, Bitely, I honestly hate you now and will actively campaign against anything you might ever try to pass.

OOC:
Yeah... it's one thing to try and block legislation you dislike, it's another to tank someone else's draft in an intentional effort to subvert and sabotage the voting system.

I believe I've been forthcoming in this whole thing. If you look at my other posts you'll see that I said I'd campaign Against "Secularism in Governance". I've also said that this proposal needed more work before it was submitted. I've done what I said I'd do and I'm satisfied with the results. Now ifthis proposal was revised and rewritten I would probably approve of it. But as it was, in my opinion, an unfinished draft I didn't care for it to pass.

[Araraukar]

*snip*

OOC: Just please go away.