What improvements would you like to see for GE&T?

[Lamoni]

As we all know, there is room for improvement here for the GE&T sub-forum. Indeed, there has been much discussion on the subject for awhile now. We are currently looking for suggestions from GE&T-ers as to how to improve the sub-forum, and the more workable suggestions might even be implemented.

Please no obvious spam or trolling, we are looking for serious suggestions. Remember, Moderation does not - and will not - enforce or determine community conventions. Keep this in mind with all suggestions made.

AKA: It has to be about the community improving itself.

Recommendations that involve new boards, sub-boards, or coding changes to the game are not something we are looking for; Moderation has already said these are not going to happen.

[Kyrusia]

Just so folks know, expect to see Mentors specializing in GE&T to be coming and going out of this thread fairly regularly. A part of this is helping give us ideas, thought, and input toward the development of a new sticky (or stickies), ways in which the fairly eclectic knowledge base of this community can be more readily made available to newer players, and better ways in which the Mentors (and pro-active players seeking to assist) can... well, assist.

[The Federation of Kendor]

How about creating a sticky that compiles guides on each types of storefronts, like airport or airline threads, with the simple codes ready?

[Cirdia]

Perhaps the list of guides on storefront-making should be more visible and pinned at the top of the subforum? Some of the guides could also be consolidated as some of them repeat the same information or tips, but paraphrased. This should make it a bit more simple for everyone to follow, especially new and up-and-coming players who would need help.

Another suggestion would be an pinned, official directory of GE&T businesses to give active threads that get pushed back better exposure. Rather than have people click through page upon page of GE&T, they can just check out the list and visit the storefronts that interest them. I know there have been previous attempts to do this, but they get pushed back as well. The only issues with this though are regular updates and a limit as to how long a storefront can remain inactive before being removed from the list. There's also the issue of storefronts being added to the list, then they go silent.

I hope this makes sense. Even just a little bit. Haha.

[Aurora Confederacy]

We definately need to have more storefront guidelines, so people can see how a good storefront is laid out, I know mine can do better, but there are a lot of people who throw together many-a-storefront with poor layouts then wander why they don't do so well.

guidelines for RP-buyers too as so many storefronts have lots of effort put into them only to get someone post a one liner as an order. That infuriates a lot of people!

Kyrussia, i'm pretty sure you have seen it yourself, where people like Van Luxemburg put in loads of effort in creating a storefront, highly detailed specifications of product almost to the point of being a near review of a fictive product, with highly detailed descriptions of interior, features, and a comprehensive list of specifications that would have taken several weeks of research, only for someone to put "I would like to order 21 of [enter product here] please" as the entire post!

[Aurora Confederacy]

How about creating a sticky that compiles guides on each types of storefronts, like airport or airline threads, with the simple codes ready?

That would work. I went to the trouble of helping others in the Astyrail project of which here is one of the group: viewtopic.php?p=16815264

How NOT to make a cluttered storefront, (yes I am guilty of that!) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=198994#p10874038 hence the remodel viewtopic.php?p=32093448

however Id also like to see more people develop vehicle sectors, as far as I am aware there is only myself and VLT selling commercial vehicles, Eslovakia(?) who did Karlberg did but where has he gone now?

Kyrussia, I have also tried to offer advice in PM rather than clutter a storefront with hints, and sometimes got NOWHERE. Winner12345 i think was one example that was so bad at GE&T he got banned

[Maltropia]

As some people will recall, I have a draft Guide to GE&T in production. It's been on hold for, well, forever because of my studies and whatnot but when I'm finally free next month you can definitely expect some work on it. So, I'd like to slightly extend the purpose of this thread and ask "What do you think a GE&T guide needs to include?"

[Argentinstan]

As some people will recall, I have a draft Guide to GE&T in production. It's been on hold for, well, forever because of my studies and whatnot but when I'm finally free next month you can definitely expect some work on it. So, I'd like to slightly extend the purpose of this thread and ask "What do you think a GE&T guide needs to include?"

Hopefully some basic templates for storefronts such as airports or airlines.

[Catlander]

Could the mods becoming in public notaries guaranting the signature of 'official' documents (f.i. loans, contracts, payings, etc.)?.

Thus, If someone violates/delays some contract the mod could to ban him/her from GE&T forum for a few days.

[Allanea]

The problem with the above is that the various documents are in-character agreements. Moderators can't - and shouldn't - police people's in-character actions unless there's evidence they're deliberately done as a form of OOC trolling.

If your nation, or its companies, or your characters, have fallen victim of in-character fraud, you need to take appropriate in-character action.

[Crookfur]

As some people will recall, I have a draft Guide to GE&T in production. It's been on hold for, well, forever because of my studies and whatnot but when I'm finally free next month you can definitely expect some work on it. So, I'd like to slightly extend the purpose of this thread and ask "What do you think a GE&T guide needs to include?"

Hopefully some basic templates for storefronts such as airports or airlines.

Oh dear no.

Templates while fine for wikis and factbook articles are to be honest a bit of a plague on GE&T a result in a lot of indentikit storefronts.

It might work if the templates were very very basic to enable (or more or less require) people to expand and diversify from them.

In my personal opinion there has over the last few years been far too much of a drive towards form and achieving some ideal appearance over actual content.
Everyone who is putting in more than a basic bit of effort into thier storefronts recently seems to think that there is a necessity for screeds and screeds of background, history and all sorts of information where as frankly there isn't. Honestly what real company puts the stuff it is trying to sell behind more than paragraph of "Who we are and what we do"? Yes they might have all sorts of detailed history and "why we are da best" but its all very secondary and keenly focused on selling the actual products/services/solutions. There is nothing I personally hate more than having to scroll through several paragraphs of often dry and frankly downright boring of bumph before i get to the good stuff and belive me you can really tell the difference between a writer who is really into writing such stuff and someone who feels they have to do it because thats what a "good" storefront has to have.

The key to a good storefront is to enjoy what you are doing and focus on what you enjoy wiritng and creating and anything that feels a chore should be relagated until you can find some kind of passion to get it done.

Ok now that i have kicked over the wasp's nest its time to move onto the hornet's nest that is crticism.

Frankly its the lack of it that is a big problem on GE&T and honestly this lack is hurting a lot of otherwise promising content.

As it stands we only really have TGs and the "Realism" and associated threads on FN&I and both are pretty terrible.

TGs are likely fine for many of you but I simply hate them both becuase i find them very cumbersome and due to the fact that to be effective a critque has to be at least semi public. Not just to make consideration of the criticism offered more likely, in fact thats a fairly minor part, but because none of us are perfect and get everything right all the time and generally several different veiw points combined will offer far more than listening to one self proclaimed wisened sage.

The Realsim etc threads are awful as they have become far far too cliquy and more about internal memes, borderline trolling and personal theories than real advice and discussion (although some of us try).

Saddly i can't think of a workable solution outside of raising the spectre of the Draftroom(or soemthign similar) but that could only work if new blood were to be fully on board and cohesive enough to desire and support it

[Britonisea]

Nah, not templates, that would just make everyone type the same thing using different words. A guide is okay, I guess.

I like loads of effort. To be honest, I'd rather learn about a company before buying products from them / setting shops up in my nation rather than just sign up for the company. I know some of the businesses here are just unable to have a backstory (I mean, if you're going to do a storefront about selling snails, I'm sure you cannot type much about it) but it really does bother me to see two lines of text and 'wow' we have a business.

A hope of mine, really, is to see business accreditation sites, rating of businesses storefronts and things like that up again. Perhaps it will propel people to make a more high quality storefront.

And while its an easy way to start life in GE&T, the airline industry cycle is too large. There should be more emphasis on different types of storefronts needed in GE&T. There could possibly be a large gaping whole in the NS business industry we are missing out on!

Extreme and unrealistic (but not impossible) scenario is to make storefronts in a separate place and each storefront has to wait until they get the "ok, you're ready." for it to be posted as an official NS Business. It'd obviously be harder for those wanting to go in to the airline industry. But I guess this idea is a bit too out-there... A bit harsh even haha.

[Cirdia]

Y'know, I've been interested in putting together a guide on what makes a storefront great. I'm not gonna delve into specifics yet since I have to do the document first. Would it be alright if I present it to the mods for review? I know I only have Cirdiana and Avethera right now, but what I have in mind might apply to every kind of storefront regardless of industry.

[Cirdia]

A hope of mine, really, is to see business accreditation sites, rating of businesses storefronts and things like that up again. Perhaps it will propel people to make a more high quality storefront.

There have been attempts at that, but how would we know the one doing the rating is qualified to do so? Is he/she impartial? Knows what to look for and where? Can see points of improvement most people miss?

It would take a lot of effort and should mean more than some stars on a storefront by someone who just happens to run a personal rating system of what he/she thinks is nice without looking at the basic guidelines.

And while its an easy way to start life in GE&T, the airline industry cycle is too large. There should be more emphasis on different types of storefronts needed in GE&T. There could possibly be a large gaping whole in the NS business industry we are missing out on!

Extreme and unrealistic (but not impossible) scenario is to make storefronts in a separate place and each storefront has to wait until they get the "ok, you're ready." for it to be posted as an official NS Business. It'd obviously be harder for those wanting to go in to the airline industry. But I guess this idea is a bit too out-there... A bit harsh even haha.

I am actually for this despite running an airline myself. It's like a vicious cycle in the era of deregulation with a new airline popping up every now and then with minimal content and lackluster quality. Then again, we can't stop people from posting and they may as well post whatever they want as long as it conforms to the forum rules. Doing this may cause issues like isolating GE&T from other people who don't start out too good but improve and get better. I go back to my original suggestion of making the GE&T guides more visible so that they can immediately base their work on a general framework. The rest is up to them.

[Yohannes]

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I would support the idea of a new Draftroom (i.e., a peer review and polite but stern, serious, honest, and to-the-point criticism thread), as Crookfur said. I can see Maltropia running such a thread (he is a neutral person, I think we all can agree with that). Also, uhm, yeah. I said thread, not off-site forum, because why not? Let's make it onsite, not offsite

But it cannot be cliquey, as Crookfur said also. It means no internet relay chat or channel (e.g., Discord and other such internet website), because otherwise uhm, I feel individuals will group up together (and from there, it will only be a few chapters down to cliquey, drama, internet teaming up stuff, and unpleasant environment for some non regulars), and then it will fail.

I would also love to see a new Draftroom, run by Maltropia as opening poster (as Senior National and International Roleplay Mentor specialising in Global Economics & Trade, and as one of the most neutral mentors I've seen), to include significant focus on non military things, as I feel it'll generate more hype and interests from potential new players. Okay, uhm, it's fair to say that military stuff can generate a lot of hype and interests too, but not to the extent that non military things can (the scope of military sector storefront creation and maintenance in Global Economics & Trade is not as large as non military, for most non regulars and casual forum goers). Aha

I wouldn't personally like to see, uhm, something along the line of 'this is what your storefront should be like', because I feel that it would subtly stigmatise creativity and limit out of box thinking by players who want to create new storefronts

Finally, aha, and I know some players will disagree with me on this one very strongly, I personally would like to see a sticky, or maybe a notice, or anything, somewhere up there where Global Economics & Trade forum goers can see it, that just because a storefront thread has many posts does not mean that the company (or business, corporation, other entity) of that storefront is bigger than other storefronts not having as many posts (i.e., a VMK storefront with 3,000 posts doesn't mean the company VMK is bigger than other companies with storefronts having 100 posts)

I feel it's important to stress that out because, uhm, it would let forum goers know that quality is better than quantity; that the quality of their writing or the content of one's storefront is better than focusing on making sure there will be more players posting in your thread. That just because no one is posting in your thread, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with your storefront, but because storefront is a part of creative writing storytelling content in NationStates, and that ultimately you do it to make yourself feel good; because you have explained, to forum goers who have seen your thread, about something, a part of your nation state. See, my nation state is rich; rich in culture, rich in history, uhm, and this storefront is a part of that history, a part of my nation state's economy, aha

Finally, to the point of why I feel it should be Maltropia who is the opening poster of a new Draftroom (peer review) thread. Well, it's not because he is a mentor by itself. But, because Maltropia is a mentor (and a historically neutral one at that), the new Draftroom will be very well looked after. There will be no possibility of whoever is controlling the nation state account of the opening poster going missing, or going... entirely out of character (like someone here once... aha...). It will provide for stability, and hopefully people will fall in line more with the 'no cliquey' expectation (this includes not trying to group up alongside the Mentors, as Mentors can make a lot of mistakes too, just like regular forum goers)

Uhm, that's it for now I guess... I need to eat my brekkie...

[Allanea]

I'm going to disagree with the previous poster, but only a bit.

I think wha'ts needed is not a new thread, but an off-site forum. (Maybe even just posting stuff on the old Draftroom more).

A single shared thread is'nt really a good format to hold discussion on a design, because discussion of a design gets overwhelmed by posts from other users who want to discuss something else.

[Britonisea]

There have been attempts at that, but how would we know the one doing the rating is qualified to do so? Is he/she impartial? Knows what to look for and where? Can see points of improvement most people miss?

It would take a lot of effort and should mean more than some stars on a storefront by someone who just happens to run a personal rating system of what he/she thinks is nice without looking at the basic guidelines.

Well I'm pretty sure if a less seasoned GE&T'er were to run this accreditation/rating storefront, it wouldn't be taken seriously. We can't pin point those who are qualified to do it as there is no examination to pass (to be qualified to rate a storefront). Whilst I understand that previous attempts have come and gone, it certainly was a way to pick out the cream of the crop and those who needed that extra bit of advice and guidance to help them improve their storefront, and the thing I liked about it was that it also gave back OOC feedback instead of things like 'upgrade your logo'.

Moreover, this is doesn't have to be a one-person affair, oh no. It could be a board of people, and they maybe come to a decision through majority wins or jury style (where everyone agrees).

What I am trying to get at, really, isn't the amount of stars or whatever, but rather whether a storefront has the credibility to be a NS business. If it doesn't receive the needed credibility, what it will receive is constructive criticism and a "try again very soon, we have faith" (only those who are willing to maintain their storefront would try, try, try again)...

This would fit in with the draftroom idea, but I do understand my plans can be considered quite extravagant and unnecessary bagage.

---

Also, yeah, a single shared thread? Nah. I don't think that is a good format, as Allanea said.

[Cirdia]

The mods and mentors would be the best bet for this, if that's the case. Also, like I said, "It would take a lot of effort and should mean more than some stars on a storefront." Sure, a storefront may be rated 5 stars or something like that, but does it deserve that rating? It has to be backed up by its content.

As for putting a filter for accreditation, how can that be done? No checks currently exist that would stop anyone from posting on the forum.

[Yohannes]

I'm going to disagree with the previous poster, but only a bit.

I think wha'ts needed is not a new thread, but an off-site forum. (Maybe even just posting stuff on the old Draftroom more).

A single shared thread is'nt really a good format to hold discussion on a design, because discussion of a design gets overwhelmed by posts from other users who want to discuss something else.

Also, yeah, a single shared thread? Nah. I don't think that is a good format, as Allanea said.

Uhm, you guys are both right! I agree with that. But, the problem of having an offsite thing is, uhm, it won't generate exposure to NationStates forum goers. People can't be bothered to check offsite stuff, most of the time, unless they are determined to do so in the first place (recommendation from you, me, or other people). To add to that, something located onsite, in NationStates itself, will make it look more official than something offsite. Also, the more closer watched by NationStates site moderation or staff (including mentors) this thing would be, the better. More official vibe to it, and more stability too (less chance of unpleasant stuff happening in the future). Less risks, more positive.

However, both you guys are right also; a single thread for multiple designs and points of discussion? Yeah... not a good idea, aha. If it's offsite, however, how can we make sure forum goers will actually have the incentive to visit the offsite forum, without us telling them to do so, or advertising the offsite forum? And how can we make sure it won't be cliquey? If, say, the site staff or site admin team personally do not like some players, how can we make sure they won't treat these players with discrimination, subtle or not?

But the more I think about it, I agree with Allanea and Britonisea. A single thread for something like a Draftroom is definitely not a good idea... aha. But what's the alternative on site?

[Allanea]

I think we're not going to ever have the majority of GE&T posters care about designs, quality, and so on.

But if we have some critical mass of quality storefronts - and at one point there were 10-20 quality storefronts operating at any given time - and a community of people who are interested in making innovative, better things.

That's already going to be a step forward.

I want to encourage people to make better things, even if it's not all people but only a small group.

In the old Draftroom I shared a lot of historical knowledge that I gathered via threads and things that I wrote for people, and judged a design competition together with some other guys.

I'm ready to do these things again if I'm called upon.

[The Macabees]

Fwiw, NSD is still around, even if only Haishan and V10 posts in it.

[Kyrusia]

Kyrussia, i'm pretty sure you have seen it yourself, where people like Van Luxemburg put in loads of effort in creating a storefront, highly detailed specifications of product almost to the point of being a near review of a fictive product, with highly detailed descriptions of interior, features, and a comprehensive list of specifications that would have taken several weeks of research, only for someone to put "I would like to order 21 of [enter product here] please" as the entire post!

Kyrussia, I have also tried to offer advice in PM rather than clutter a storefront with hints, and sometimes got NOWHERE. Winner12345 i think was one example that was so bad at GE&T he got banned

I have, on more than one occasion (read: I have lost count). The issue here is such things as this are not really rule violations, but violations of community conventions (no godmodding, no metagaming, put effort into your work, etc.). We - speaking as a Mod - don't enforce these. What we can do is, upon request, remove posts not meeting the requirements laid-out by the OP. Even so, a part of the purpose of this thread is to formulate a new way in which players who do this, more often than not simply being new, can have easier access to this board's copious amounts of information and years of player expertise to the end that these sort of posts can at least be built upon, with more players seeking to dedicate time and effort while also being knowledgeable of why this is such a common expectation.

And yes, sometimes people simply don't want help. There's very little one can do (in the sphere of assistance) in instances such as that. We, as Mentors, run into it as well. Though I hate to say it, sometimes it simply takes the realization a community simply will not tolerate [whatever] behavior, diminishing the threads they can participate in, before people decide to change.

Could the mods becoming in public notaries guaranting the signature of 'official' documents (f.i. loans, contracts, payings, etc.)?.

Thus, If someone violates/delays some contract the mod could to ban him/her from GE&T forum for a few days.

Short answer? No.

Slightly longer answer? No. Moderators do not intervene in roleplaying (In-Character) disputes; we only will intervene in the event a rule is violated or things are getting heated to the point where such may be imminent (sometimes called "Looming Ominously" or a "KIO" [Knock It Off], depending on exactly what the issue is). Similarly, Mentors won't (in an official capacity) be doing this. It's not our job to settle In-Character disputes for you; while Mentors will, upon invitation, sometimes help settle Out-of-Character disputes beneath the threshold of actionability (Mentors are not Mods; they do not have punitive powers.), that's different. That's helping arbitrate OOC friction.

And we're certainly not going to ban people simply because they don't post when others want them to. Players have real lives and real obligations; you also can't force them to roleplay with you - or even force them to acknowledge your existence.

Extreme and unrealistic (but not impossible) scenario is to make storefronts in a separate place and each storefront has to wait until they get the "ok, you're ready." for it to be posted as an official NS Business. It'd obviously be harder for those wanting to go in to the airline industry. But I guess this idea is a bit too out-there... A bit harsh even haha.

Yeah. We're not going to be splitting out new boards. Not to mention, it'd require Moderators to judge roleplay by it's quality, something we cannot (and will not) do.

In relation to this, I will note, any such "draftroom"/advice style thread? It'd be non-binding and voluntary. It'd have to be a place where players can seek assistance and constructive criticism, but as noted: we do not engage in judging roleplay quality. There will always be threads some consider sub-par, but that doesn't mean we go locking every thread someone just doesn't like because it doesn't meet their personal expectations. "Sub-par roleplay" does not, by default, mean "spam."

Edit: As for one thread being an issue? Not seeing it. There are several threads on several different boards that are dedicated to similar set-ups, where people provide input and constructive criticism to various ideas, concepts, or tangents. Some are more formalized, certainly, which might fit GE&T's general style better; namely, a player fills-out a form detailing the ideas for their storefront, products/services, etc. Doesn't have to be a full spiel or sample OP (thought it could be); either way, it gives players in the thread (and Mentors) a set bit of information to focus on and assist with crafting/refining.

[The Macabees]

My issue with NSD, as its second founder, is that it brings the activity off of NS and it ended up killing RPing for a lot of the people involved in it. Because you start to frequent NSD over NS, in large part because designers often just design, so if most of the discussion that matters to you is off of NS, why go back to NS?

[Allanea]

My issue with NSD, as its second founder, is that it brings the activity off of NS and it ended up killing RPing for a lot of the people involved in it. Because you start to frequent NSD over NS, in large part because designers often just design, so if most of the discussion that matters to you is off of NS, why go back to NS?

That's happened with the 'realism' threads as well, except without the designing.

[Argentinstan]

Hopefully some basic templates for storefronts such as airports or airlines.

Oh dear no.

Templates while fine for wikis and factbook articles are to be honest a bit of a plague on GE&T a result in a lot of indentikit storefronts.

It might work if the templates were very very basic to enable (or more or less require) people to expand and diversify from them.

In my personal opinion there has over the last few years been far too much of a drive towards form and achieving some ideal appearance over actual content.
Everyone who is putting in more than a basic bit of effort into thier storefronts recently seems to think that there is a necessity for screeds and screeds of background, history and all sorts of information where as frankly there isn't. Honestly what real company puts the stuff it is trying to sell behind more than paragraph of "Who we are and what we do"? Yes they might have all sorts of detailed history and "why we are da best" but its all very secondary and keenly focused on selling the actual products/services/solutions. There is nothing I personally hate more than having to scroll through several paragraphs of often dry and frankly downright boring of bumph before i get to the good stuff and belive me you can really tell the difference between a writer who is really into writing such stuff and someone who feels they have to do it because thats what a "good" storefront has to have.

The key to a good storefront is to enjoy what you are doing and focus on what you enjoy wiritng and creating and anything that feels a chore should be relagated until you can find some kind of passion to get it done.

Ok now that i have kicked over the wasp's nest its time to move onto the hornet's nest that is crticism.

Frankly its the lack of it that is a big problem on GE&T and honestly this lack is hurting a lot of otherwise promising content.

As it stands we only really have TGs and the "Realism" and associated threads on FN&I and both are pretty terrible.

TGs are likely fine for many of you but I simply hate them both becuase i find them very cumbersome and due to the fact that to be effective a critque has to be at least semi public. Not just to make consideration of the criticism offered more likely, in fact thats a fairly minor part, but because none of us are perfect and get everything right all the time and generally several different veiw points combined will offer far more than listening to one self proclaimed wisened sage.

The Realsim etc threads are awful as they have become far far too cliquy and more about internal memes, borderline trolling and personal theories than real advice and discussion (although some of us try).

Saddly i can't think of a workable solution outside of raising the spectre of the Draftroom(or soemthign similar) but that could only work if new blood were to be fully on board and cohesive enough to desire and support it

True...all storefronts would be plain if we had templates.