"Thanks Obama" Said Kim After Getting Nukes from Ukraine

[Shofercia]

Sorry, title should say "Getting Nuclear Missile Engines", but that didn't fit.

Yep, it happened: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/worl ... ctory.html

North Korea’s success in testing an intercontinental ballistic missile that appears able to reach the United States was made possible by black-market purchases of powerful rocket engines probably from a Ukrainian factory with historical ties to Russia’s missile program, according to an expert analysis being published Monday and classified assessments by American intelligence agencies. The studies may solve the mystery of how North Korea began succeeding so suddenly after a string of fiery missile failures, some of which may have been caused by American sabotage of its supply chains and cyberattacks on its launches. After those failures, the North changed designs and suppliers in the past two years, according to a new study by Michael Elleman, a missile expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Long story short: In 2014 the couped-in "Government" picked a fight with Russia, and Russia promptly suspended orders from Ukraine that Russia was not bound to upkeep. (Yep, that gas pipeline is going bye-bye in 2019.) One of the suspended orders came from a plant producing engines for nuclear missiles. Without orders, the plant fell on hard times, and the nuclear scientists were unemployed. Instead of doing something intelligent, (like employing these guys,) the couped-in "Government" did what they do best: blame Russia.

Enter North Korea. They recruited some of these scientists and got a copy of the design. Starving in Ukraine or being treated like royalty in North Korea - not exactly a hard choice. And they don't even have to buy meth!

Those engines were linked to only a few former Soviet sites. Government investigators and experts have focused their inquiries on a missile factory in Dnipro...

Why would Poroshenko watch what the nuclear scientists do when he has much more important things, like toppling Zhukov statues, renaming random cities, and posing for Russian Online memes?

But since Ukraine’s pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, was removed from power in 2014, the state-owned factory, known as Yuzhmash, has fallen on hard times. The Russians canceled upgrades of their nuclear fleet. The factory is underused, awash in unpaid bills and low morale. Experts believe it is the most likely source of the engines that in July powered the two ICBM tests, which were the first to suggest that North Korea has the range, if not necessarily the accuracy or warhead technology, to threaten American cities. “It’s likely that these engines came from Ukraine — probably illicitly,” Mr. Elleman said in an interview. “The big question is how many they have and whether the Ukrainians are helping them now. I’m very worried.”

I love the "probably illicitly" part of that quote. The Sun will probably rise tomorrow. I should also note that when the couped-in "Government" came to power, they appointed three Governors: Taruta, Kolomoiski, and Saakashvili. Taruta's Donetsk is now in full revolt, (and being quite successful,) Saakashvili failed to prosecute a single corrupt individual in Odessa and lost even by Ukraine's corruption standards, and Kolomoiski was the Governor of Dnepropetrovsk, aka Dnipro.

And yeah, my guess is that the engines were probably transported through Russia, because as a result of the sanctions, Russia suspended a good chunk of the expenditures on enforcing US sanctions against other countries. But the engines didn't originate in Russia.

So, NSG - what does Ukraine's couped-in "Government" has to do to lose your support? What do you think about this assistance to North Korea?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

This hatred for Ukraine is real.

[Sovaal]

Sorry, title should say "Getting Nuclear Missile Engines", but that didn't fit.

Yep, it happened: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/worl ... ctory.html

North Korea’s success in testing an intercontinental ballistic missile that appears able to reach the United States was made possible by black-market purchases of powerful rocket engines probably from a Ukrainian factory with historical ties to Russia’s missile program, according to an expert analysis being published Monday and classified assessments by American intelligence agencies. The studies may solve the mystery of how North Korea began succeeding so suddenly after a string of fiery missile failures, some of which may have been caused by American sabotage of its supply chains and cyberattacks on its launches. After those failures, the North changed designs and suppliers in the past two years, according to a new study by Michael Elleman, a missile expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Long story short: In 2014 the couped-in "Government" picked a fight with Russia, and Russia promptly suspended orders from Ukraine that Russia was not bound to upkeep. (Yep, that gas pipeline is going bye-bye in 2019.) One of the suspended orders came from a plant producing engines for nuclear missiles. Without orders, the plant fell on hard times, and the nuclear scientists were unemployed. Instead of doing something intelligent, (like employing these guys,) the couped-in "Government" did what they do best: blame Russia.

Enter North Korea. They recruited some of these scientists and got a copy of the design. Starving in Ukraine or being treated like royalty in North Korea - not exactly a hard choice. And they don't even have to buy meth!

Those engines were linked to only a few former Soviet sites. Government investigators and experts have focused their inquiries on a missile factory in Dnipro...

Why would Poroshenko watch what the nuclear scientists do when he has much more important things, like toppling Zhukov statues, renaming random cities, and posing for Russian Online memes?

But since Ukraine’s pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, was removed from power in 2014, the state-owned factory, known as Yuzhmash, has fallen on hard times. The Russians canceled upgrades of their nuclear fleet. The factory is underused, awash in unpaid bills and low morale. Experts believe it is the most likely source of the engines that in July powered the two ICBM tests, which were the first to suggest that North Korea has the range, if not necessarily the accuracy or warhead technology, to threaten American cities. “It’s likely that these engines came from Ukraine — probably illicitly,” Mr. Elleman said in an interview. “The big question is how many they have and whether the Ukrainians are helping them now. I’m very worried.”

I love the "probably illicitly" part of that quote. The Sun will probably rise tomorrow. I should also note that when the couped-in "Government" came to power, they appointed three Governors: Taruta, Kolomoiski, and Saakashvili. Taruta's Donetsk is now in full revolt, (and being quite successful,) Saakashvili failed to prosecute a single corrupt individual in Odessa and lost even by Ukraine's corruption standards, and Kolomoiski was the Governor of Dnepropetrovsk, aka Dnipro.

And yeah, my guess is that the engines were probably transported through Russia, because as a result of the sanctions, Russia suspended a good chunk of the expenditures on enforcing US sanctions against other countries. But the engines didn't originate in Russia.

So, NSG - what does Ukraine's couped-in "Government" has to do to lose your support? What do you think about this assistance to North Korea?

Russian isn't exactly on the worst of terms with North Korea either, and I don't see how the Ukrainian government is responsible for a possible black market deal.

And, sources?

[Free Maronites]

Russian isn't exactly on the worst of terms with North Korea either, and I don't see how the Ukrainian government is responsible for a possible black market deal.

And, sources?

Not responsible? Not responsible for a deal that allowed North Korea to produce nuclear missiles?

So if an American arms contractor partook in an illegal black market deal with North Korea providing intercontinental ballistic missiles, etc, the US government isn't responsible? Ukraine should at least have the competence to make sure this doesn't happen.

Also, the OP provided one.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Russian isn't exactly on the worst of terms with North Korea either, and I don't see how the Ukrainian government is responsible for a possible black market deal.

And, sources?

Not responsible? Not responsible for a deal that allowed North Korea to produce nuclear missiles?

So if an American arms contractor partook in an illegal black market deal with North Korea providing intercontinental ballistic missiles, etc, the US government isn't responsible? .

No it isn't.

[Sovaal]

Russian isn't exactly on the worst of terms with North Korea either, and I don't see how the Ukrainian government is responsible for a possible black market deal.

And, sources?

Not responsible? Not responsible for a deal that allowed North Korea to produce nuclear missiles?

So if an American arms contractor partook in an illegal black market deal with North Korea providing intercontinental ballistic missiles, etc, the US government isn't responsible? Ukraine should at least have the competence to make sure this doesn't happen.

Also, the OP provided one.

Nope, it isn't. The black market is called the black market for a reason. I don't blame any of the former Soviet states for the missing nuclear weapons, so why should I for this?

[Saiwania]

So if an American arms contractor partook in an illegal black market deal with North Korea providing intercontinental ballistic missiles, etc, the US government isn't responsible?

I would say no, it depends. No, the US federal government isn't to blame if a private company goes rogue and breaks US law to complete a transaction with North Korea, but the US federal government might be at fault for failing to prevent it from happening, depending on how it all actually happened. If there were intelligence failures and so on. Some black market stuff really does slip through the cracks completely, despite best efforts to stop it.

[Free Maronites]

No it isn't.

I call bullsh*t. It's all nice and good to say that it's not the US government's problem if an American company is selling arms to North Korea, but I bet you'll change your tune if it happens.

Nope, it isn't. The black market is called the black market for a reason. I don't blame any of the former Soviet states for the missing nuclear weapons, so why should I for this?

The Black market is also illegal, which means that the hypothetical US company (or less hypothetical Ukrainian company) would be breaking the law, and hence requiring the government to competently administer the law.

[Sovaal]

No it isn't.

I call bullsh*t. It's all nice and good to say that it's not the US government's problem if an American company is selling arms to North Korea, but I bet you'll change your tune if it happens.

Nope, it isn't. The black market is called the black market for a reason. I don't blame any of the former Soviet states for the missing nuclear weapons, so why should I for this?

The Black market is also illegal, which means that the hypothetical US company (or less hypothetical Ukrainian company) would be breaking the law, and hence requiring the government to competently administer the law.

And they would. But the government isn't some all seeing god, nor should they be. Things slip through the crack. Things go missing. Including nuclear bombs.

[Free Maronites]

I would say no, it depends. No, the US federal government isn't to blame if a private company goes rogue and breaks US law to complete a transaction with North Korea, but the US federal government might be at fault for failing to prevent it from happening, depending on how it all actually happened. If there were intelligence failures and so on. Some black market stuff really does slip through the cracks completely.

That's the point of the article, it's pointing out a possibly large security/intelligence failure on the parts of nations monitoring North Korea.

[Free Maronites]

And they would. But the government isn't some all seeing god, nor should they be. Things slip through the crack. Things go missing. Including nuclear bombs.

Post-soviet states suffering from intense internal turmoil over the collapse of communism and transition to a capitalist economy is one thing. The US, or even Ukraine, is another.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No it isn't.

I call bullsh*t. It's all nice and good to say that it's not the US government's problem if an American company is selling arms to North Korea, but I bet you'll change your tune if it happens.

It's their problem, not their fault. Which is what you asked.

[Grinning Dragon]

What I get from this, is that without help from Ukraine and real scientists who knew what the fuck they were doing, noko would still be playing with bottle rockets while boasting their capabilities of total world annihilation.

[Costa Fierro]

Something similar happened in 1991 when Russia was shedding nuclear scientists left right and centre. Apparently a plane load of them were on their way to Pyongyang when someone stopped them.

[Napkiraly]

Alternatively we can blame Russia for making them unemployed in the first place just because their guy in Kiev happened to get the boot.

[Sovaal]

And they would. But the government isn't some all seeing god, nor should they be. Things slip through the crack. Things go missing. Including nuclear bombs.

Post-soviet states suffering from intense internal turmoil over the collapse of communism and transition to a capitalist economy is one thing. The US, or even Ukraine, is another.

I would say an insurrection and Russian-in-all-but-name invasion would count as internal turmoil.

[Ifreann]

I would have thought that missile engines were missile engines, regardless of the payload.

[Sovaal]

I would have thought that missile engines were missile engines, regardless of the payload.

Well maybe Kim just wants to get to the moon?

[Austrasien]

So, NSG - what does Ukraine's couped-in "Government" has to do to lose your support? What do you think about this assistance to North Korea?

You know rocket engines are not nukes, right?

And speaking of assisting the North Korean nuclear program, Russia's client Syria has a lot to answer for. When will Putin hold Assad to account for supporting North Korea's nuclear program?

[Improved werpland]

Reee.

Must we also forget that the Russian state directly comes to the aid of North Korea by forgiving their debt and importing them for labor? Also, I was under the impression you recognized the New York Times as a warmongering neoconservative mouthpiece. Was Ames incorrect?

[Summertimequestionswine]

I too put the word government in quotes when I want to assert illegitimate rule without ever having to justify my assertion.

[Austrasien]

Oh and speaking of regimes which have supported North Korea...

The Putin regime has a lot to answer for.

• A Russian company, Investstroytrest, opened a new ferry line in May connecting the Russian port city of Vladivostok to the North Korean city of Rajin. Mikhail Khmel, the company’s deputy director, told Reuters the ferry is aimed at Chinese tourists seeking to visit Vladivostok by sea.

• Russian railway officials in January visited North Korea to discuss upgrades to the Rajin-Hasan railway, which links Russia to the Korean peninsula, according to Russia’s state news agency TASS.

• Russia and North Korea have reached a labor immigration agreement to expand a program that already employs 40,000 North Korean laborers in Russia’s timber and construction industries, a major source of foreign currency for Kim Jong Un’s government, according to the Japanese newspaper Nihon Keizai.

These moves come despite Russia's signing onto recent sanctions by the United Nations Security Council, which call for reducing trade with North Korea in retaliation for two nuclear detonations last year and ongoing tests of ballistic missiles that the North says are aimed at developing a nuclear delivery system that can reach the U.S. mainland.

But UNSC resolutions are just Banderite-Fascist-Obama plots to weaken the motherland.

Oh and Putin's puppet Assad also was also implicated by UN investigators of engaging in illicit co-operations with North Korea on ballistic missile projects a few years back.

Although both shipments mentioned in the report were made before the Syrian government launched its assault on opposition demonstrators in March 2011, diplomats said they were worrying because it showed the kinds of items Damascus had been trying to add to its arsenal - and the aid it received from North Korea and China.

The panel said it could not prove North Korea continued to maintain ballistic missile cooperation with Iran, Syria and other countries, "but notes that it would be consistent with reports of the DPRK's long history of missile cooperation with these countries and with the panel's observations."

[Saiwania]

I lean towards Ukraine being neglectful on this now, it is like portions of their government became depressed about whatever events were going on and decided to not do anything for a time.

[Vulgar Bulgar]

Nothing surprising from a mafia state. I'm surprised the engines work, considering Ukraine's poor arms quality in their T-80 deal with the Pakis.

[Fartsniffage]

The article is predicated on the idea that the engines used are in the RD-250 family. All those produced were sold to Russia as part of the the Tsyklon-2 orbital launch platform.

Having not flown since 2006, it was believed to have been retired when it was reported that the Tsyklon family of rockets was out of service following the final Tsyklon-3 launch in 2009, however in 2012 it was reported that one more remained to be launched, which was expected to carry the last US-P satellite into orbit in mid-2012.[2] As of August 2013 that launch has not taken place, and no longer appears on launch schedules, leaving the Tysklon-2's status unclear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsyklon-2

Now which is more likely, the convoluted plot in the OP or Russia having just sold a surplus rocket to the Norks? They probably got a whole bunch of slav.....workers for their forestry industry in return...