Doxxing and Free Speech

[Shofercia]

Sauce: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/c ... xxing.html

One of the beautiful things about the Internet is that you can bring up controversial issues, without the fear of reprisal, if you do so anonymously. This means that issues that would get you in trouble in real life, (like making a gif with Trump destroying CNN on a fake wrestling show,) are allowed, and sometimes encouraged on the Internet.

But a dark day in America's History - the Charlotsville March, changed all of that. And to understand it, we have to consider all viewpoints. A lot of the nationalists feel betrayed by Trump doing what he does best - bullshitting. McMaster isn't exactly an ideal leader, and his level of competence can be compared to Holder's, so it's not like America needs him. So they decided to stage the march.

On the other hand we have the minorities, the African Americans and Latinos, who are scared of Trump. His initial "condemnation" of the KKK seemed more like tongue and cheek encouragement. From their perspective, their lives improved a bit under Obama, and then they got Trump. They didn't understand what supporting Clinton would bring them, and right now they're terrified, because they're afraid that what little benefits they got under Obama, will be rolled back, and a KKK style march isn't going to help them.

While the leadership, in the face of Trump and McMaster casts gross incompetence, the two sides followed CNN's example and began Doxxing each other. Innocent victims are already being targeted, like Kyle Quinn who was probably treating a minority in his hospital, hundreds of miles from the march. He was doxxed, and it changed his opinion of the Liberals for the worse:

“You have celebrities and hundreds of people doing no research online, not checking facts,” he said. “I’ve dedicated my life to helping all people, trying to improve health care and train the next generation of scientists, and this is potentially throwing a wrench in that.”

Read between the lines. There was no remorse for wrongfully outing Kyle, even though to me, a white guy, that "protestor" and Kyle look nothing alike, aside from them both liking Arkansas and having beards.. how many white guys in Arkansas like their state and have beards? The seeds are being sown. And to make matters even worse, it's going both ways:

...the person behind @YesYoureRacist — who could not be reached for comment — was the target of an apparent doxxing by another Twitter user, who posted what appeared to be phone numbers and other personal information.

With amateur sleuths, (some of whom are angry shitheads,) and doxxing on both sides the situation is getting ugly. Strip away online anonymity and you drive the viewpoint even further under ground, and if something cannot be debated, it just adds to one's anger, making the situation even worse, a situation that bozo and clown, excuse me, Trump and McMaster, are ill equipped to handle.

I apologize for the long OP, but I feel that doxxing and free speech is an issue worthy of informed discussion, which could become to driving issue diving America even more, and I don't want to see this great country divided. So, NSG, discuss. And yes, I'm agreeing with the NYT - it's that scary!

Edit: I should point out that I have no issues with those who attended the march being doxxed, but I also want punishment for those who wrongfully doxx folks like Kyle Quinn, or those who doxx people who simply make gifs. How can we stop this from spreading?

[Sovaal]

Yah, doxxing is a shitty thing to do and is in no way related to free speech.

And yes, the political situation is going down the shitter.

[The Widening Gyre]

This is a bit of a special case not only because of the whole Nazi march thing, but for the fact that most (?) of the people involved were walking right out in the open and were fully aware that they could be photographed or end up on the front page of the news. By showing your face you're publicly identifying yourself - that's why people on the internet with anonymous or pseudonymous accounts (like here) tend to protect photos of themselves. Not sure if it really counts as doxxing when the marches did the lions share of publicizing their own identities.

[Minoa]

"Doxxing" is one of the things that have challenged my faith in the internet, along with trolling and hate speech.

However, until I have someone to talk to in person, on an everyday basis, the internet is the only link to the outside world, and to be honest it feels like a prison.

[Aclion]

Doxxing should be treated as a breach of privacy and entitle the victim to any damages related to that breach, including from loss of employment.

That said the protesters in breach of privacy were not doxxed, they chose to reveal themselves. You have no expectation of privacy in a pubic setting.

[Greater Cesnica]

I've doxxed before. And I'm an actual hacker. I can tell you, the amount of time and effort you have to put into not getting caught and getting behind the server check is more than the rewards, usually. Unless you're going after POTUS, in which you're almost completely fucked.

[Great Nepal]

Doxxing should be treated as a breach of privacy and entitle the victim to any damages related to that breach, including from loss of employment.

That said the protesters in breach of privacy were not doxxed, they chose to reveal themselves. You have no expectation of privacy in a pubic setting.

True on second half, although I'm not sure you've reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet either assuming you've posted your information somewhere online. If someone hires an private investigator to stalk you, break into your house etc then sure but if someone manages to look up your facebook that you voluntarily created from posts you voluntarily made - meh.
Obviously like with case of Kyle Quinn where wrong people are identified, there should be law changes to make it easier to sue.

[Greater Cesnica]

The software actually used in a dox is typically a state look-up system. This is what I used:
(DO NOT TRY THIS. I ONLY DID IT BECAUSE I'M HIGHLY EXPERIENCED, AND AS A WHITE-HAT IT'S MY JOB.)

[MERIZoC]

Identifying someone who goes out in public to a rally is not "doxxing".

[Ethel mermania]

You would think in this day and age these fellows would be smart enough to wear hoods like their ancestors did.

Doxxing is uncool, but there is no expectation of privacy in a public demonstration. Now this should go for both sides, if a leftist illegal alien gets doxxed I will shed no tears when they are deported.

[Eol Sha]

You would think in this day and age these fellows would be smart enough to wear hoods like their ancestors did.

As far as I understand it the KKK has tried to class up their looks. Hard to get taken seriously when you look like the bastard child of a gnome and a ghost. Of course, the lynchings and cross burnings don't help either.

[Greater Cesnica]

You would think in this day and age these fellows would be smart enough to wear hoods like their ancestors did.

Doxxing is uncool, but there is no expectation of privacy in a public demonstration. Now this should go for both sides, if a leftist illegal alien gets doxxed I will shed no tears when they are deported.

Why should we?

[Ethel mermania]

You would think in this day and age these fellows would be smart enough to wear hoods like their ancestors did.

Doxxing is uncool, but there is no expectation of privacy in a public demonstration. Now this should go for both sides, if a leftist illegal alien gets doxxed I will shed no tears when they are deported.

Why should we?

Why should we what? I am unsure to which point you are replying too.

[Sovaal]

You would think in this day and age these fellows would be smart enough to wear hoods like their ancestors did.

As far as I understand it the KKK has tried to class up their looks. Hard to get taken seriously when you look like the bastard child of a gnome and a ghost. Of course, the lynchings and cross burnings don't help either.

Gnome ghosts? Ghomes? Gnosts?

[Costa Fierro]

Identifying someone who goes out in public to a rally is not "doxxing".

Presumably the if the boot was on the other foot, you wouldn't treat it with such irreverence.

[Purpelia]

Identifying someone who goes out in public to a rally is not "doxxing".

Presumably the if the boot was on the other foot, you wouldn't treat it with such irreverence.

He has a point. When you are out in a public place making a personal appearance and not making any attempt to hide your identity than you can not have a reasonable expectation that your identity will be hidden. And the same thing extends to any online service where you willingly provide your real identity details. It's different if you wear a mask or are on the internet and are actually making an effort to remain anonymous. And the two issues need to be separated if any meaningful conclusions are to be reached.

[Rio Cana]

Sauce: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/c ... xxing.html

One of the beautiful things about the Internet is that you can bring up controversial issues, without the fear of reprisal, if you do so anonymously. This means that issues that would get you in trouble in real life, (like making a gif with Trump destroying CNN on a fake wrestling show,) are allowed, and sometimes encouraged on the Internet.

But a dark day in America's History - the Charlotsville March, changed all of that. And to understand it, we have to consider all viewpoints. A lot of the nationalists feel betrayed by Trump doing what he does best - bullshitting. McMaster isn't exactly an ideal leader, and his level of competence can be compared to Holder's, so it's not like America needs him. So they decided to stage the march.

On the other hand we have the minorities, the African Americans and Latinos, who are scared of Trump. His initial "condemnation" of the KKK seemed more like tongue and cheek encouragement. From their perspective, their lives improved a bit under Obama, and then they got Trump. They didn't understand what supporting Clinton would bring them, and right now they're terrified, because they're afraid that what little benefits they got under Obama, will be rolled back, and a KKK style march isn't going to help them.
snip....

Our US territory has been in an economic depression (not recession) since at least 2008. The current US leadership seems to be doing nothing and the past leadership did nothing. And chances are that the democratic candidate that lost would have done nothing. So what benefits are you talking about. Maybe on the mainland they saw these so called benefits you mentioned but not here.

[Shofercia]

This is a bit of a special case not only because of the whole Nazi march thing, but for the fact that most (?) of the people involved were walking right out in the open and were fully aware that they could be photographed or end up on the front page of the news. By showing your face you're publicly identifying yourself - that's why people on the internet with anonymous or pseudonymous accounts (like here) tend to protect photos of themselves. Not sure if it really counts as doxxing when the marches did the lions share of publicizing their own identities.

So should the standard be - if you march in a protest, it's perfectly okay for someone to photograph you and send the photograph to all of your potential employers? Let's flip the situation a bit, and say that you march in a Workers' Rights Protest. What do you think images of you on the web doing that, would do to your chances of employment, even in hippy San Francisco?

Doxxing should be treated as a breach of privacy and entitle the victim to any damages related to that breach, including from loss of employment.

That said the protesters in breach of privacy were not doxxed, they chose to reveal themselves. You have no expectation of privacy in a pubic setting.

True on second half, although I'm not sure you've reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet either assuming you've posted your information somewhere online. If someone hires an private investigator to stalk you, break into your house etc then sure but if someone manages to look up your facebook that you voluntarily created from posts you voluntarily made - meh.
Obviously like with case of Kyle Quinn where wrong people are identified, there should be law changes to make it easier to sue.

So let's say that you have to get information about a KKK-affiliate, and so you go on their website and post hateful comments about Latinos. You love Latinos, and you're just doing this to get the information that you need for your project. You tell your Latino friends about the project, tell them that you mean no harm with your comments, and ask them permission to post said comments. They okay it. You also use Tinder on the same computer, and on Tinder you have your real name. So if someone hacks your computer, takes your name from your Tinder profile and takes your posts from KKK's website - is that legit in your book?

Presumably the if the boot was on the other foot, you wouldn't treat it with such irreverence.

He has a point. When you are out in a public place making a personal appearance and not making any attempt to hide your identity than you can not have a reasonable expectation that your identity will be hidden. And the same thing extends to any online service where you willingly provide your real identity details. It's different if you wear a mask or are on the internet and are actually making an effort to remain anonymous. And the two issues need to be separated if any meaningful conclusions are to be reached.

Let's say that you do make an effort to remain anonymous, but someone at the rally recognizes you, irrespective of your mask. And they yell out your name. Should someone else, who overheard the conversation and now knows your name, be able to say that you were at that rally?

[Shofercia]

Sauce: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/c ... xxing.html

One of the beautiful things about the Internet is that you can bring up controversial issues, without the fear of reprisal, if you do so anonymously. This means that issues that would get you in trouble in real life, (like making a gif with Trump destroying CNN on a fake wrestling show,) are allowed, and sometimes encouraged on the Internet.

But a dark day in America's History - the Charlotsville March, changed all of that. And to understand it, we have to consider all viewpoints. A lot of the nationalists feel betrayed by Trump doing what he does best - bullshitting. McMaster isn't exactly an ideal leader, and his level of competence can be compared to Holder's, so it's not like America needs him. So they decided to stage the march.

On the other hand we have the minorities, the African Americans and Latinos, who are scared of Trump. His initial "condemnation" of the KKK seemed more like tongue and cheek encouragement. From their perspective, their lives improved a bit under Obama, and then they got Trump. They didn't understand what supporting Clinton would bring them, and right now they're terrified, because they're afraid that what little benefits they got under Obama, will be rolled back, and a KKK style march isn't going to help them.
snip....

Our US territory has been in an economic depression (not recession) since at least 2008. The current US leadership seems to be doing nothing and the past leadership did nothing. And chances are that the democratic candidate that lost would have done nothing. So what benefits are you talking about. Maybe on the mainland they saw these so called benefits you mentioned but not here.

Yeah, you guys got fucked by Obama, and Bush before that, and Clinton before that, and other Bush before that, and now it's Trump's turn, but in California, at least in the cities, we had a good recovery. Obamacare helped the inner city youth and minorities quite a bit, although I should point out that Universal Healthcare would've helped almost everyone. Puerto Rico is just not treated with respect. You guys got Jaresko, the cunt whose job was ensuring that Ukraine's pensioners starve to death so that the state can make the budget look more presentable, and she was paid over $500k. You'll never see that happen in California, because we matter. Until you guys become a state and have a say in Congress, or become a swing state in presidential elections, you just don't matter. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[Gauthier]

Doxxing started out with pro-lifers revealing the names and addresses of abortion providers in hopes someone would terrorize them into stopping or even killing them after all.

[Shofercia]

Doxxing started out with pro-lifers revealing the names and addresses of abortion providers in hopes someone would terrorize them into stopping or even killing them after all.

"Killing people is wrong... DIE BITCH!"

Why am I not surprised that doxxing had an evil start?

[The East Marches II]

Boy, what did McMaster do to get on your list? He isn't even related to this and shown very good leadership. He has done his part for his country very efficiently. Is it merely his awareness of the Russian threat that you don't like?

[MERIZoC]

Identifying someone who goes out in public to a rally is not "doxxing".

Presumably the if the boot was on the other foot, you wouldn't treat it with such irreverence.

wow, insightful

Given that you dont actually go outside, perhaps I'd best explain the difference between tracking down the identity of someone behind an anonymous shield online, and identifying someone who goes to a public forum to "share" their views?

[Shofercia]

Boy, what did McMaster do to get on your list? He isn't even related to this and shown very good leadership. He has done his part for his country very efficiently. Is it merely his awareness of the Russian threat that you don't like?

Hey guys, here's what very good leadership looks like to Eastern Marches 2.0: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/ ... staff.html

President Donald Trump has a defining question before him in the decision on whether to fire National Security Adviser H. R. McMaster and sweep the entire National Security Council clean. The latest leak, from those who are sworn to protect the nation’s secrets, is perhaps the most damaging of them all. When the Washington Post published annotated transcripts of President Trump’s Oval Office telephone conversations with the presidents of Mexico and Australia respectively, citing an NSC controlled transcript as the source, inestimable damage was done to the United States’ ability to conduct foreign policy. No foreign leader can speak with President Trump or any future president now without at least a worry that his or her words will be released.

That's so easy to grasp, that even Fox News grasps it. Even Fox News understands that you need some capability to conduct foreign policy. Eastern Marches 2.0 strongly disagrees, seeing Russia everywhere. Leaking everything = very good leadership for Eastern Marches 2.0. But he's still angry that Lincoln kept the country together:

By complex you mean Lincoln imposed martial law and threw secessionists in jail? Then again, it's not like he had many options after the Firing on Fort Sumter.

You mean violated the Constitution as we found out later :^)

Perhaps its Honor that Eastern Marches 2.0 has an issue with?

With the unprecedented, politically motivated leaking occurring under McMaster’s watch, an honorable man would offer his resignation for having failed his duty to the president. And the president should accept it. Barring McMaster’s decision to take that course, it is incumbent upon President Trump to remove the National Security Adviser from office. As part of his exit interview, General McMaster should also be required to take a lie detector test. After all, he is the outgoing leader of the NSC team that decided to declare war on the elected president of the United States.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... loyalists/

New details from those familiar with the circumstances of National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster’s recent purge at the National Security Council paint a picture of a general who removed staffers over their loyalty or views, not because of their competence.

Yeah, it's Breibart, hurr durr hurr. Now prove, Eastern Marches 2.0 - where the trio fired by McMaster were incompetent?

[The East Marches II]

Fox News and Breitbart. Jesus you are going all out, you didn't even put any bait on that big hook you left in the water. 0/10 would not reply to. Do not want, entire post is irrelevant.