[ABANDONED] Norms for the Dorms

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

OK, I was unfortunately inspired to write this draft after seeing this: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-st ... sCatID=341

And before that there was: http://www.france24.com/en/20131105-tur ... ng-erdogan

[description]The @@CAPITAL@@ Herald has recently published an interview with @@RANDOMNAME@@, a famous educator, who referred to the mixed-sex dormitories in @@NAME@@ as "sordid hotbeds of fornication." Now a large group of concerned parents are demanding that the government close down mixed-sex dormitories.

[validity]adults-only, fornication must be criminalized, homosexuality must be illegal

1. [option]"We must put an end to this temptation," cries @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the mother of a university student, clutching her rosary melodramatically. "My daughter has to stay in a dormitory in @@CAPITAL@@, because she studies at @@CAPITAL@@ University, and there are boys staying in the rooms on the same floor! Can you imagine? What if they try to seduce and defile my girl? @@LEADER@@, the government must shut down all mixed-sex dormitories for the sake of our kids' chastity!"
[effect]members of the opposite sex are mysterious creatures for the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ youth

2. [option]"This does not go far enough!" yells @@RANDOMNAME@@, a famous anti-homosexuality campaigner, carrying a placard that reads Homosexuals are Sinners, WE will be the Winners!. "Shutting down mixed-sex dorms will eliminate sexual intercourse between members of the opposite sexes, but have you ever thought about the boys and the girls who will be staying in the same room? This is a brazen temptation to have homosexual relationships, I say. @@LEADER@@, you should mandate that students stay in single rooms, they cannot have sex in dorms in this way! Also, being alone in their quiet rooms is also probably good for studying, right?"
[effect]TimeOut @@CAPITAL@@ magazine named the dorm rooms of @@NAME@@ among the "100 Safest Places to Masturbate"

3. [option]"You can't really stop these youngsters from having sex in this way," muses @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Minister of Matrimony, paging through a wedding magazine. "If people are eager to have premarital sex, they can easily rent an apartment instead of a dorm room, they can go to a hotel, or think of myriad other possibilities to have sex unbeknownst to their parents. What we should do instead is to form a Marriage Squad that will round up the couples who have been engaging in sexual intercourse with reasonable doubt, and join their hands in holy matrimony. If they get married, this means they have technically had sex with their spouse, doesn't it?"
[effect]rejected lovers are rumored to turn themselves in to the police and confess to having had sex with their love interest

4. [option]"Whoah! What is this nonsense?" exclaims your nephew, who is a university student. "Why should it be the responsibility of government to supervise the sexual conduct of university students? I say leave it to the administrators of the individual dorms to decide to whom they will rent their rooms. If parents want to safeguard their kids' chastity, they can accommodate them in gender-segregated dorms."
[effect]mixed-sex dormitories require their customers to pay increasingly high rents due to the rising demand

OK, I suspect the effect line of 2 may be inappropriate, even though the issue is for adults only. If so, please tell me, so I can think of a new effect line.

[Trotterdam]

OK, I was unfortunately inspired to write this draft after seeing this: [url]http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-students-cannot-stay-in-same-room-turkish-education-ministry-says.aspx?pageID=238&nID=115880&NewsCatID=341[/ur;]

And before that there was: http://www.france24.com/en/20131105-turkish-pm-says-state-will-intervene-mixed-sex-housing-erdogan

Just looking at the URLs here (can't be bothered to open them right now), I note that being roommates in the same room and inhabiting different rooms (with their own keys) on the same dorm floor are very different things.

Being roommates is a bigger deal, so an issue about who should be allowed to be roommates would be more widely-applicable to not-as-crazy-as-Turkey nations than one about who should be allowed to be on the same dorm floor. Then again, if individual rooms are male-only or female-only, there's usually little reason not to put all the male-only ones in one half of the building and all the female-only ones in the opposite half of the building.

It would make it not just about super-conservatives, since a lot of students would be uncomfortable being roommates with someone of the opposite gender, rather than just outside people complaining.

[validity]adults-only, fornication must be criminalized, homosexuality must be illegal

Well, that's at least one flaw with gender segregation that I was going to point out already addressed

I don't know about "fornication must be criminalized", can we do that? I know we have issues about banning adultery, as in having sex with someone you're not married to when you are married, but I don't think any issue bans having sex with someone before you're married (even though that's often something opposed by the same people who oppose adultery), other than the ones that ban sex altogether (which I'm pretty sure is not what you're going for here).

2. [option]"This does not go far enough!" yells @@RANDOMNAME@@, a famous anti-homosexuality campaigner, carrying a placard that reads Homosexuals are Sinners, WE will be the Winners!. "Shutting down mixed-sex dorms will eliminate sexual intercourse between members of the opposite sexes, but have you ever thought about the boys and the girls who will be staying in the same room? This is a brazen temptation to have homosexual relationships, I say. @@LEADER@@, you should mandate that students stay in single rooms, they cannot have sex in dorms in this way! Also, being alone in their quiet rooms is also probably good for studying, right?"

Okay, so if you had this option, why did you include the bit about homosexuality in the validity?

It's possible for someone to be in favor of gay marriage while maintaining that also gay people shouldn't have sex before marriage. (Granted, probably not a super-common position in real life, but I think it's a sensible enough position to warrant recognition, plus being an amusing "gotcha".)

Anyway, there's a lot of reasons besides sexuality to want a room to yourself (privacy, not having your fridge raided, and yes, peace and quiet), so I think making the option primarily about "homosexuals are so, so evil" is misrepresenting the point.

"If people are eager to have premarital sex, they can easily rent an apartment instead of a dorm room, they can go to a hotel, or think of myriad other possibilities to have sex unbeknownst to their parents."

I was going to point out the simpler solution of simply inviting a student to stay the night on your dorm instead of his/her own, until I remembered that this would be awkward if your assigned roommate is there with you.

In that sense, individual rooms for everyone would actually make fornication easier than shared rooms, since while the latter might make it easier to have sex with your roommate if you happen to be interested, it also makes it harder to have sex with anyone else.

OK, I suspect the effect line of 2 may be inappropriate, even though the issue is for adults only. If so, please tell me, so I can think of a new effect line.

Well, I'm one of the more prudish people around here, but I would rather it be changed, yes.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Thank you for your comments, Trotterdam!

OK, I was unfortunately inspired to write this draft after seeing this: [url]http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-students-cannot-stay-in-same-room-turkish-education-ministry-says.aspx?pageID=238&nID=115880&NewsCatID=341[/ur;]

And before that there was: http://www.france24.com/en/20131105-turkish-pm-says-state-will-intervene-mixed-sex-housing-erdogan

Just looking at the URLs here (can't be bothered to open them right now), I note that being roommates in the same room and inhabiting different rooms (with their own keys) on the same dorm floor are very different things.

Being roommates is a bigger deal, so an issue about who should be allowed to be roommates would be more widely-applicable to not-as-crazy-as-Turkey nations than one about who should be allowed to be on the same dorm floor. Then again, if individual rooms are male-only or female-only, there's usually little reason not to put all the male-only ones in one half of the building and all the female-only ones in the opposite half of the building.

It would make it not just about super-conservatives, since a lot of students would be uncomfortable being roommates with someone of the opposite gender, rather than just outside people complaining.

Alright, as you guessed, the second link (which is from 2013) is about the president's proposal to ban mixed-sex dorms - which has been implemented in the mean time. So this means that dorm buildings can accommodate either only girls or only boys.

Keep in mind that it has long been unthinkable for Turks to allow their children to share their rooms with members of the opposite sex, so it was never the case that there were mixed-sex rooms. Each individual room housed only girls or only boys, but boys' rooms and girls' rooms could be within the same building. This has been banned.

The first link is about the more recent ban. The government realized that they could only solve the problem of heterosexual sex by eliminating mixed-sex dorms. It was still possible for students to have homosexual relationships with their same-sex roommates. So our genius government said: let us only allow single rooms or rooms with 3,4,5,6 students, but not rooms with 2 students. When two students are together, they can have sex, you know? (well, when there are more people they can actually engage in group sex, too, but I guess they weren't smart enough to think about that. )

So having 2 students in one room has recently been banned too.

But I agree with your criticism, maybe focusing on these two aspects at the same time is not good.

So how about the following premise?

validity: homosexuality banned

description: it is being reported that some students are having sex with their same-sex roommates in the dorm, so it is proposed that only single rooms be allowed

What do you think?

[validity]adults-only, fornication must be criminalized, homosexuality must be illegal

Well, that's at least one flaw with gender segregation that I was going to point out already addressed

I don't know about "fornication must be criminalized", can we do that? I know we have issues about banning adultery, as in having sex with someone you're not married to when you are married, but I don't think any issue bans having sex with someone before you're married (even though that's often something opposed by the same people who oppose adultery), other than the ones that ban sex altogether (which I'm pretty sure is not what you're going for here).

OK, I checked for this before writing this draft. In issue #175: Is @@NAME@@ Too Promiscuous?, there is a character in Option 2 who says: "If we find someone guilty of fornication we can just lock them up in jail."

I think this person uses fornication to refer to adultery, because the issue itself is about adultery. But as far as I know, fornication simply means "sex between people who are not married to each other," so I assumed that it comprises both adultery & premarital sex. Was I wrong in thinking this?

If there is no issue that bans premarital sex, maybe I should first attempt to write a draft on this?

2. [option]"This does not go far enough!" yells @@RANDOMNAME@@, a famous anti-homosexuality campaigner, carrying a placard that reads Homosexuals are Sinners, WE will be the Winners!. "Shutting down mixed-sex dorms will eliminate sexual intercourse between members of the opposite sexes, but have you ever thought about the boys and the girls who will be staying in the same room? This is a brazen temptation to have homosexual relationships, I say. @@LEADER@@, you should mandate that students stay in single rooms, they cannot have sex in dorms in this way! Also, being alone in their quiet rooms is also probably good for studying, right?"

Okay, so if you had this option, why did you include the bit about homosexuality in the validity?

It's possible for someone to be in favor of gay marriage while maintaining that also gay people shouldn't have sex before marriage. (Granted, probably not a super-common position in real life, but I think it's a sensible enough position to warrant recognition, plus being an amusing "gotcha".)

Anyway, there's a lot of reasons besides sexuality to want a room to yourself (privacy, not having your fridge raided, and yes, peace and quiet), so I think making the option primarily about "homosexuals are so, so evil" is misrepresenting the point.

These are all nice points, Trotterdam! But I'll comment on this depending on how this issue will progress.

"If people are eager to have premarital sex, they can easily rent an apartment instead of a dorm room, they can go to a hotel, or think of myriad other possibilities to have sex unbeknownst to their parents."

I was going to point out the simpler solution of simply inviting a student to stay the night on your dorm instead of his/her own, until I remembered that this would be awkward if your assigned roommate is there with you.

In that sense, individual rooms for everyone would actually make fornication easier than shared rooms, since while the latter might make it easier to have sex with your roommate if you happen to be interested, it also makes it harder to have sex with anyone else.

That's also true...

Lol, maybe they should put guards at the doors who will make sure only the tenant of the room enters the room...And the effect line can refer to students bribing their guards to let their lovers in?

OK, I suspect the effect line of 2 may be inappropriate, even though the issue is for adults only. If so, please tell me, so I can think of a new effect line.

Well, I'm one of the more prudish people around here, but I would rather it be changed, yes.

OK, I'll do that as soon as I attempt to restructure the issue by taking the comments into account. What would be your responses to the questions I posed above? They can really help me restructure this draft.

Once again, thank you very much for your detailed comments, Trotterdam!

[Trotterdam]

So how about the following premise?

validity: homosexuality banned

description: it is being reported that some students are having sex with their same-sex roommates in the dorm, so it is proposed that only single rooms be allowed

Hey, if that's your only problem, you could just mandate that all shared rooms house one boy and one girl. That'll teach 'em to do it right!

I think your problem is a lack of direction. You need to figure out what your goals are (making students more comfortable re: sexual harrassment, making parents more comfortable that their children won't be fornicating, opposing sex in general or only specific forms of sex like homosexuality - or then again, simply deciding what to do about dorm rooms, with both sexuality and other considerations being touted as arguments) before you figure out possible approaches to achieving those goals, or if you have speakers with different goals, then the basic issue validity shouldn't already be biased towards some of those goals.

If there is no issue that bans premarital sex, maybe I should first attempt to write a draft on this?

Sure, sounds promising! (And especially with the "force them to marry" option, which isn't available for adultery... well, unless your nation has polygamy, which is also something a lot of us have...)

Lol, maybe they should put guards at the doors who will make sure only the tenant of the room enters the room...And the effect line can refer to students bribing their guards to let their lovers in?

Well, you'll need fewer guards if you just post them at the front door of the dorm building, but then what about students who want to meet up for legitimate reasons (like helping each other study) and don't plan to spend the night?