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Is the presidential system really that bad?

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Nordengrund
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Is the presidential system really that bad?

Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:38 am

The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.

It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.

Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.

Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.

While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.

Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?

Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.
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Calladan
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Postby Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:58 am

Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.

It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.

Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.

Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.

While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.

Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?

Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.


Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:03 am

Calladan wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:
Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?


That sounds so much better
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Postby Union of Despotistan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:34 am

FPTP is utter shit without a percentage of seats going proportional. It discards lots of views that so happens to not have strongholds. UKIP in England or National Front and France Insoumise in France for example.
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:03 am

Union of Despotistan wrote:FPTP is utter shit without a percentage of seats going proportional. It discards lots of views that so happens to not have strongholds. UKIP in England or National Front and France Insoumise in France for example.


FPTP has its advantages. While you usually get stuck with a two-party system overtime, they tend to become big tent parties housing a variety of views and ideologies. However, that no longer seems to be the case with the U.S. because politics has become increasingly polarized. I wouldn't mind opening it up a little more to include Libertarians, and maybe another party such as Green or Constitution.
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:16 am

TIL that France, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania aren't European
Last edited by Thermodolia on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:29 am

Thermodolia wrote:TIL that France, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania aren't European


Well, they are more semi-presidential.
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Postby The of Japan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 am

Nordengrund wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:TIL that France, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania aren't European


Well, they are more semi-presidential.

US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.
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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:56 am

The of Japan wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:
Well, they are more semi-presidential.

US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.


Odd. I've never seen it classified as semi-presidential.
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Postby Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:16 pm

Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.

It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.

Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.

Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.

While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.

Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?

Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.


From my personal perspective is ok and good enough. What I don't like about the Parliamentary system, is those so called votes of no confidence that can bring a coalition government down, it should be banned. If your government is elected for a certain number of years, it should govern for those number of years.
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:17 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:TIL that France, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania aren't European


Well, they are more semi-presidential.

It's still a presidential system. Belarus is a presidential system.
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Postby Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:21 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
The of Japan wrote:US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.


Odd. I've never seen it classified as semi-presidential.


I like semi presidential, semi parliamentary systems, I RP my real world and regional world named nations that way.
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Postby Roosevetania » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:26 pm

Yes.

It should be ended everywhere and replaced with parliamentary with MMP elections.
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Postby Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:27 pm

Greater Miami Shores wrote:From my personal perspective is ok and good enough. What I don't like about the Parliamentary system, is those so called votes of no confidence that can bring a coalition government down, it should be banned. If your government is elected for a certain number of years, it should govern for those number of years.


Yeah - this makes no sense.

Currently the Tory government has no majority - it is 8 seats short. So without the help of the DUP, it arguably can't pass any of it's policies, bills or laws for the next five years. That's five whole years without the government passing ANY new laws.

So you would really rather see the UK have no new laws, no new legislation and no new ANYTHING for five whole years, than see the government collapse and a new election take place? Because to me that seems a tad...... counterproductive at best and incredibly dangerous at worst.
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Postby Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:38 pm

Calladan wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:From my personal perspective is ok and good enough. What I don't like about the Parliamentary system, is those so called votes of no confidence that can bring a coalition government down, it should be banned. If your government is elected for a certain number of years, it should govern for those number of years.


Yeah - this makes no sense.

Currently the Tory government has no majority - it is 8 seats short. So without the help of the DUP, it arguably can't pass any of it's policies, bills or laws for the next five years. That's five whole years without the government passing ANY new laws.

So you would really rather see the UK have no new laws, no new legislation and no new ANYTHING for five whole years, than see the government collapse and a new election take place? Because to me that seems a tad...... counterproductive at best and incredibly dangerous at worst.


You make a good argument, you got me thinking on it.
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:15 pm

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Calladan wrote:
Yeah - this makes no sense.

Currently the Tory government has no majority - it is 8 seats short. So without the help of the DUP, it arguably can't pass any of it's policies, bills or laws for the next five years. That's five whole years without the government passing ANY new laws.

So you would really rather see the UK have no new laws, no new legislation and no new ANYTHING for five whole years, than see the government collapse and a new election take place? Because to me that seems a tad...... counterproductive at best and incredibly dangerous at worst.


You make a good argument, got me thinking on it.


Well, new laws aren't always better laws, which is one of the goals of the presidential system. It takes a lot to get a new law passed, but there's a reason for that.
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:18 pm

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:
Odd. I've never seen it classified as semi-presidential.


I like semi presidential, semi parliamentary systems, I RP my real world and regional world named nations that way.


I honestly don't know how semi-presidential governments turn out in regards to democracy, civil rights, and corruption, but most of them seem decent at the very least.

I really like the idea of the semi-parliamentary system, but on the national level it has been only found in Israel, which abolished the direct election of the PM.
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Postby New haven america » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:29 pm

Calladan wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.

It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.

Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.

Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.

While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.

Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?

Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.


Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?

One problem, the recent batches of UK Parliament elections have been considered some of the least representative in the country's history, so yeah...
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Postby Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:
You make a good argument, got me thinking on it.


Well, new laws aren't always better laws, which is one of the goals of the presidential system. It takes a lot to get a new law passed, but there's a reason for that.


Do you know how much it takes to get a law passed in the UK? Seriously - go look it up. I'll wait here for you to do it :)

New haven america wrote:
Calladan wrote:Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?

One problem, the recent batches of UK Parliament elections have been considered some of the least representative in the country's history, so yeah...


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Postby Crylante » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:01 pm

As a British person, I do not like the presidential system. I feel that it places too much power into the hands of one person with little accountability. While our current system in Britain is far from perfect, it at least gives the executive some accountability to a legislature. Most people I know view the American government and its system as a mess.

I feel in general, parliamentary and directorial systems of representative democracy give the executive more accountability; in these models the executive is accountable to a democratically elected legislature and they can be removed from power by the legislature if they no longer hold confidence.
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Postby Crylante » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:04 pm

The of Japan wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:
Well, they are more semi-presidential.

US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.

From what I understand, semi-presidential refers to a system akin to France or Portugal where an elected president holds some executive power, normally over external affairs, and a Prime Minister with the confidence of the legislature holds other executive powers, normally over external affairs. This is not seen in the USA, making it not semi-presidential.
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Postby Soyouso » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:33 pm

Commenting for the notification. I wouldn't contribute much to this conversation because I dislike democracy in general and honestly hold dislike for each. I do want to hear how this discussion plays out so I'll probably lurk through this thread later.

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Postby Major-Tom » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 pm

It's fine. What we really need in the US is just a more proportional system for the House, as well as scrapping the electoral college entirely.

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Postby Risottia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.


You should learn something about Europe.
1.France is a presidential republic. The President is elected directly by the people. He's the HoS and also wields executive power: a part of the executive power, though, is exerted in his stead by a PM appointed by the President and given confidence by the Parliament.
2.Switzerland isn't a presidential republic, it's a directorial republic.
3.Russia is a presidential republic, more or less on the same lines of France.
.

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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:54 pm

Crylante wrote:
The of Japan wrote:US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.

From what I understand, semi-presidential refers to a system akin to France or Portugal where an elected president holds some executive power, normally over external affairs, and a Prime Minister with the confidence of the legislature holds other executive powers, normally over external affairs. This is not seen in the USA, making it not semi-presidential.

In most semi-presidential systems the president holds the most power as they are able to appoint everyone else in the government.
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I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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