by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:38 am
by Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:58 am
Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.
It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.
Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.
Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.
While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.
Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?
Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.
by Yes Im Biop » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:03 am
[violet] wrote:Urggg... trawling through ads looking for roman orgies...
Idaho Conservatives wrote:FST creates a half-assed thread, goes on his same old feminist rant, and it turns into a thirty page dogpile in under twenty four hours. Just another day on NSG.
Immoren wrote:Saphirasia and his ICBCPs (inter continental ballistic cattle prod)
by Union of Despotistan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:34 am
by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:03 am
Union of Despotistan wrote:FPTP is utter shit without a percentage of seats going proportional. It discards lots of views that so happens to not have strongholds. UKIP in England or National Front and France Insoumise in France for example.
by Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:16 am
by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:29 am
Thermodolia wrote:TIL that France, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania aren't European
by The of Japan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 am
by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:56 am
by Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:16 pm
Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.
It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.
Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.
Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.
While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.
Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?
Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.
by Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:17 pm
by Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:21 pm
by Roosevetania » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:26 pm
by Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:27 pm
Greater Miami Shores wrote:From my personal perspective is ok and good enough. What I don't like about the Parliamentary system, is those so called votes of no confidence that can bring a coalition government down, it should be banned. If your government is elected for a certain number of years, it should govern for those number of years.
by Greater Miami Shores » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:38 pm
Calladan wrote:Greater Miami Shores wrote:From my personal perspective is ok and good enough. What I don't like about the Parliamentary system, is those so called votes of no confidence that can bring a coalition government down, it should be banned. If your government is elected for a certain number of years, it should govern for those number of years.
Yeah - this makes no sense.
Currently the Tory government has no majority - it is 8 seats short. So without the help of the DUP, it arguably can't pass any of it's policies, bills or laws for the next five years. That's five whole years without the government passing ANY new laws.
So you would really rather see the UK have no new laws, no new legislation and no new ANYTHING for five whole years, than see the government collapse and a new election take place? Because to me that seems a tad...... counterproductive at best and incredibly dangerous at worst.
by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:15 pm
Greater Miami Shores wrote:Calladan wrote:
Yeah - this makes no sense.
Currently the Tory government has no majority - it is 8 seats short. So without the help of the DUP, it arguably can't pass any of it's policies, bills or laws for the next five years. That's five whole years without the government passing ANY new laws.
So you would really rather see the UK have no new laws, no new legislation and no new ANYTHING for five whole years, than see the government collapse and a new election take place? Because to me that seems a tad...... counterproductive at best and incredibly dangerous at worst.
You make a good argument, got me thinking on it.
by Nordengrund » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:18 pm
by New haven america » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:29 pm
Calladan wrote:Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.
It seems that even here in the United States, we are confident with our own form of government as corruption is rampant, we have corporations interfering in politics, widespread paranoia, and it seems many people are dissatisfied with the two-party system, or very dissatisfied with the nominees of both parties. Well, I wouldn't' say we have lost confidence completely, as despite all the proposed reforms, no one seems to be suggesting we switch to a parliamentary or a semi-presidential or introduce a prime minister or something similar as head of government. POTUS, after all, seems like a pretty stressful job for one person, especially considering how active the U.S. is in international affairs, and he is expected to handle domestic problems as well.
Some of the criticisms of this system may also be looked at as strengths or advantages by advocates. While the system is prone to gridlock, it can prevent hasty legislation or bills that may actually be bad ideas from becoming law, and, in theory at least, forces compromise between the executive and the legislator, especially if they are of opposing parties.
Another possible advantage is that the president could make the correct but potentially unpopular decision and would not have to be removed via a vote of no confidence. Of course, he isn't guaranteed to make the right decision, either, as he could very well make a decision that is both wrong and unpopular.
While it looks like the presidential system has a bad track record, I think it can work if it is done properly, and there might be a proper way to do it. While the government and politics of the U.S. aren't ideal, we are doing pretty good compared to the other presidential republics out there. It could have more to do with the nature of the countries themselves, as they might not value democracy, nor has it been a historical value to them, or the country could have a weak republican or democratic tradition, so maybe it has more to do with that than the system itself.
Would countries like Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Finland, Ireland, or Germany be any worse off, or much worse off if they were to adopt a presidential system like the U.S?
Personally, I don't really have a strong preference either way when it comes down to whether the presidential or parliamentary system is better overall, especially for democracy.
Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?
by Calladan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm
New haven america wrote:Calladan wrote:Would the US be much worse if it adopted a system like the UK where every voice in the government is considered equal, and no voice is put above the other when it comes to a vote?
One problem, the recent batches of UK Parliament elections have been considered some of the least representative in the country's history, so yeah...
by Crylante » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:01 pm
by Crylante » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:04 pm
by Soyouso » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:33 pm
by Risottia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:52 pm
Nordengrund wrote:The presidential system is usually considered bad for democracy, as it often results in more authoritarian and corrupt regimes and there is little or no accountability shared between the executive and legislative branches, which can impede progress. Virtually, AFAIK, no country in Europe, with the possible exception of Switzeland, depending on how you want to look at it, uses the presidential system, and you can maybe add Cyprus to the list, though idk if it is actually a European country in the technical sense. Cyprus has a president as both its head of state and government, but Idk if it would actually be more akin to something found in South Africa where it is a parliamentary system with a prime minister titled as president and serving as both the head of state and government.
by Thermodolia » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:54 pm
Crylante wrote:The of Japan wrote:US is semi-presidential as well given that the president doesn't have as much power as many other countries.
From what I understand, semi-presidential refers to a system akin to France or Portugal where an elected president holds some executive power, normally over external affairs, and a Prime Minister with the confidence of the legislature holds other executive powers, normally over external affairs. This is not seen in the USA, making it not semi-presidential.
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