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New NPC name - inappropriate?

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Thyerata
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
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New NPC name - inappropriate?

Postby Thyerata » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:50 pm

I've just had an issue where one of the NPCs had the surname Vajiralongkorn. That name is, or at the very least is a close approximation of, the current Thai king's name. Given our diverse and worldwide userbase, that name might cause offence to our Thai users (the monarchy is held in high esteem, as far as I understand), especially since the name is being used in what may be perceived as a frivolous or otherwise inappropriate setting. I would like its inclusion here to be reviewed please.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:52 pm

Which issue? Is it hard-coded, or just pot luck (if you can call it that)?
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Lanoraie
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Postby Lanoraie » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:53 pm

Are you offended on behalf of Thai people? Because that's what it sounds like.

I didn't see anyone complaining about "Obama" being a potential name, so nothing should be done.

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Thyerata
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Postby Thyerata » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:54 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Which issue? Is it hard-coded, or just pot luck (if you can call it that)?


I suspect it was pot luck. The issue (pardon the pun) is the basic fact that the name was included at all
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Thyerata
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Postby Thyerata » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:56 pm

Lanoraie wrote:Are you offended on behalf of Thai people? Because that's what it sounds like.

I didn't see anyone complaining about "Obama" being a potential name, so nothing should be done.


There's a difference. The Thai monarchy is held in high esteem (a near god-like status). The president of the United States isn't.
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:58 pm

Thyerata wrote:
Lanoraie wrote:Are you offended on behalf of Thai people? Because that's what it sounds like.

I didn't see anyone complaining about "Obama" being a potential name, so nothing should be done.


There's a difference. The Thai monarchy is held in high esteem (a near god-like status). The president of the United States isn't.

Shouldn't matter tbh. That's just ridiculous censorship.
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Postby Deian salazar » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:04 pm

We shouldn't ban names. Hell let us name a NPC Jesus or Mohammed if we want, as long as it's not clearly aimed at intentional disrespect. It popping up from time to time in silly issues is perfectly fine.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:07 pm

Deian salazar wrote:We shouldn't ban names. Hell let us name a NPC Jesus or Mohammed if we want, as long as it's not clearly aimed at intentional disrespect. It popping up from time to time in silly issues is perfectly fine.

Funny you should say that - a recent issue by Chan was concerned a protagonist called Muhammad Khan - several of them, in fact - and trying to determine which one of them was guilty of the crime.
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:10 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Deian salazar wrote:We shouldn't ban names. Hell let us name a NPC Jesus or Mohammed if we want, as long as it's not clearly aimed at intentional disrespect. It popping up from time to time in silly issues is perfectly fine.

Funny you should say that - a recent issue by Chan was concerned a protagonist called Muhammad Khan - several of them, in fact - and trying to determine which one of them was guilty of the crime.

I see no issue with that. We shouldn't censor, and everyone should be treated equally in issues, every sane name should be allowed.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:45 pm

Deian salazar wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:Funny you should say that - a recent issue by Chan was concerned a protagonist called Muhammad Khan - several of them, in fact - and trying to determine which one of them was guilty of the crime.

I see no issue with that. We shouldn't censor, and everyone should be treated equally in issues, every sane name should be allowed.

I can understand your qualms about this, and my original point was to back up your claim that "let us name a NPC Jesus or Mohammed if we want". Given that new @@RANDOMNAME@@s are being added slowly but steadily, your main point appears to refer to the adding of fixed NPC names. Again, I can more than agree with you on your point that "let us name our NPCs whatever we want" - certainly, leave out the illegal ones, and likely the likes of Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden what have you, but otherwise a decent point to be making.
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Australian Republic
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Postby Australian Republic » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:54 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Deian salazar wrote:We shouldn't ban names. Hell let us name a NPC Jesus or Mohammed if we want, as long as it's not clearly aimed at intentional disrespect. It popping up from time to time in silly issues is perfectly fine.

Funny you should say that - a recent issue by Chan was concerned a protagonist called Muhammad Khan - several of them, in fact - and trying to determine which one of them was guilty of the crime.

The name was "Muhammed Lee". Muhammed is the most common first name in the world and "Lee" the most common surname.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:22 pm

Are you a Thai person who feels like your national pride is under attack and therefore KNOWS it's offensive, or are you someone from another culture speculating that it MIGHT be offensive?

Speculating based on what you've heard about a culture isn't the most reliable way to gauge how offensive something is. For example, I've come across a few people who were under the mistaken impression that people from Massachusetts would be offended if you call them Yankees because Massachusetts is full of Red Sox fans and we hate the New York Yankees. This is completely inaccurate.

I am not Thai, so I don't know if this thing about the royal family is an actual problem or if this is the Thai equivalent of "Don't call people Yankees in Boston."

Before we remove something for being offensive to Thai people, I think we should clarify if it is actually a problem. It would be helpful to have some perspectives from actual Thai people. That could be Thai players here on the forum or it could be offsite sources that deal with similar use of the royal family's name. But I don't think, "It's the royal family's name and the monarchy is revered," is sufficient reason to take it down without some more detailed info. For example, are there people who have the same family name, but live as ordinary people because they aren't that closely related to the king? Or is the name ONLY used by high-ranking royalty? Are there specific taboos related to the name itself?

Additional info would be helpful.
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:12 am

Looks like this name is on the random names list, suggested by an editor other than myself as part of several hundred names, including many politically notable names. Looks to have been added by violet to the game at the same time of several hundred names, so it doesn't seem like we thought very hard about it.

While I visited that thread, the name didn't mentally register with me as having any sort of meaning, as I'm not familiar with the Thai royalty. However, I am aware that Thailand has pretty strict freedom of speech laws relating to their royal family. Folk can and have been arrested for even voicing doubt as to their authority or official history, under blasphemy laws of all things.

This creates something of a moral dilemma here.

On the one hand, the pluralist in me wants to accept that Thai cultural values ought to be respected, and I'd be amongst the camp suggesting that we avoid the random surname "Christ", or calling a character "Bob Allah".

On the other hand, backing down on this one seems like a betrayal of western values of free speech, especially given the human rights abuse in Thailand arresting people who misuse this name. That part of me says that's a good a reason as any to use this name, even if it might end up with NS being banned in Thailand.

This conflict of values essentially leaves me feeling neutral about whether we should remove it or not.

However, this is not a straightforward decision here. I'm going to ask for it to be passed to the top, so they can make a decision from there.
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:54 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:On the one hand, the pluralist in me wants to accept that Thai cultural values ought to be respected, and I'd be amongst the camp suggesting that we avoid the random surname "Christ", or calling a character "Bob Allah".
Well, I don't know about "Christ" (which is more of a title rather than a name, anyway - it's a Greek word with the same meaning as Hebrew "Mashiach"/"Messiah"), but "Jesus" (or "Jesús") is a relatively common personal name in Spanish.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:On the other hand, backing down on this one seems like a betrayal of western values of free speech, especially given the human rights abuse in Thailand arresting people who misuse this name. That part of me says that's a good a reason as any to use this name, even if it might end up with NS being banned in Thailand.
This is the position I support, especially if we already have the names of both elected and royal rulers from many other countries, but then I'm not the one calling the shots here.

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Frieden-und Freudenland
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Postby Frieden-und Freudenland » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:59 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:On the one hand, the pluralist in me wants to accept that Thai cultural values ought to be respected, and I'd be amongst the camp suggesting that we avoid the random surname "Christ", or calling a character "Bob Allah".
Well, I don't know about "Christ" (which is more of a title rather than a name, anyway - it's a Greek word with the same meaning as Hebrew "Mashiach"/"Messiah"), but "Jesus" (or "Jesús") is a relatively common personal name in Spanish.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:On the other hand, backing down on this one seems like a betrayal of western values of free speech, especially given the human rights abuse in Thailand arresting people who misuse this name. That part of me says that's a good a reason as any to use this name, even if it might end up with NS being banned in Thailand.
This is the position I support, especially if we already have the names of both elected and royal rulers from many other countries, but then I'm not the one calling the shots here.


Geez, the full name of the guy is Somdet Phra Boromma-orasathirat Chao Fa Maha Vajiralongkorn Sayammakutratchakuman.

Why do we have to use the exact name of Vajiralongkorn, can't we just play around with the letters? We have ample opportunity here, as I see.

How about something like Somommirat Vakuman? Just saying.

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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:29 am

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:How about something like Somommirat Vakuman? Just saying.


As we're talking a random name, rather than a specific character, that's be pointless. It'd be like replacing the Schwarzenegger in the random name list with Arnonegger: entirely meaningless, as there's no context to tell us what name we're NSifying.
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Frieden-und Freudenland
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Postby Frieden-und Freudenland » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:34 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:How about something like Somommirat Vakuman? Just saying.


As we're talking a random name, rather than a specific character, that's be pointless. It'd be like replacing the Schwarzenegger in the random name list with Arnonegger: entirely meaningless, as there's no context to tell us what name we're NSifying.


Well, if it's just a random name, what's the fuss about? I thought it wasn't randomized! :blink:

Then there is nothing to take offense, I am afraid. One shouldn't be so thin-skinned.

And now I think we should also toss in Erdogan as a random last name for good measure.

What? He doesn't own the copyright to his name!
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:57 am

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
As we're talking a random name, rather than a specific character, that's be pointless. It'd be like replacing the Schwarzenegger in the random name list with Arnonegger: entirely meaningless, as there's no context to tell us what name we're NSifying.


Well, if it's just a random name, what's the fuss about? I thought it wasn't randomized! :blink:

Then there is nothing to take offense, I am afraid. One shouldn't be so thin-skinned.

And now I think we should also toss in Erdogan as a random last name for good measure.

What? He doesn't own the copyright to his name!

Don't forget Putin, Ayatollah, Khameini, Maduro, Franco, Mussolini, Netanyahu, Modi, Turnbell, Trump, Clinton, Goldwater, May, Macron, Le Pen, Merkel, Metaxas, and Saud.
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Frieden-und Freudenland
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Postby Frieden-und Freudenland » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:40 am

Deian salazar wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:
Well, if it's just a random name, what's the fuss about? I thought it wasn't randomized! :blink:

Then there is nothing to take offense, I am afraid. One shouldn't be so thin-skinned.

And now I think we should also toss in Erdogan as a random last name for good measure.

What? He doesn't own the copyright to his name!

Don't forget Putin, Ayatollah, Khameini, Maduro, Franco, Mussolini, Netanyahu, Modi, Turnbell, Trump, Clinton, Goldwater, May, Macron, Le Pen, Merkel, Metaxas, and Saud.


Fine by me. Add them all in. :clap: :clap: :clap:


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