Empires of the Ether (Alt Victorian RP/Interest)

[Reverend Norv]

“The historian is almost tempted to conclude that between 1890 and 1914 France possessed the only really skillful diplomats in Europe.”

- D. J. Goodspeed, The German Wars: 1914-1945

Since the German Reich or its equivalent never really formed, the French humiliation in 1871 didn't happen, the Second Schleswig War of 1864 didn't happen or happened differently, the United States is actively supporting European liberalism, Russia's cut into splinter states, and presumably the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 didn't happen the way it did IRL, the balance of power and the system of alliances/rivalries in Europe is probably very, very different.

How would it look like, in rough outlines?

Well, this is obviously still pretty vague, and to some extent I'm thinking out loud.

My sense from the thread is that Britain is still the hegemon, and its naval power means that it is under no strategic obligation to ally with anyone; it can serve its RL role as a stabilizing agent, jumping in on whatever side is disadvantaged in the balance of power in order to keep the equation balanced. France is probably the most powerful country on the continent, considering its victory over Prussia. Given the collapse of Prussia, Austria-Hungary is probably France's biggest continental rival; if Italy is united and Spain held on to its empire, then those four countries would be the major powers in Western Europe. It's hard to say exactly how the system of alliances among those powers would play out; smaller countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden-Norway might well have a role to play in pressuring their larger neighbors to remain civil.

Russia would likely be in a revanchist mood, eyeing Poland and Finland, but no one in the West would want to see the Bear reclaim its former power; the threat of Russian reconquests might be the only thing that could bring the Western powers together. On the other hand, since the Crimean War, real power in the East would lie with the Ottomans. We might see a realignment of Russian policy to check Ottoman expansion in the Balkans, which would also be an Austrian priority. On the other hand, Britain would need to preserve its access to the Suez Canal, which would make the Ottomans the only power with real leverage over the hegemon.

Britain and France would likely both have colonial empires in Africa and Asia. This competition, plus France's dominance on the Continent, would probably be enough to re-ignite the old Anglo-French rivalry. Spain's empire is almost entirely in the New World, which means that its major rival is the United States, which has been covertly chipping away at its more impoverished provinces for several decades. In space, the US and France are probably jockeying for dominance on Mars, while Britain is likely the uncontested hegemon on Venus - though Austria may also have interests there. And in East Asia, Britain, France, and the US are probably all competing for influence.

So these countries would be at odds pretty much all the time:

• Britain and France
• France and Austria
• Spain and the USA

These countries would be rivals, but would also have reasons to work together:

• Austria and Russia, against the Ottomans
• The Ottomans and Britain, against any threat to the Suez Canal
• Britain and the USA, against France on Mars
• Sweden-Norway, Denmark, and Poland, against Russian revanchism

These countries would be natural friends:

• The USA and any republics, even small ones like Switzerland or new ones like Poland (the success of the January Uprising would probably have created a Polish national republic in the spirit of '48)
• Britain and the second-tier powers of Europe, like Sweden-Norway and the Netherlands, because they all share an interest in preventing a general European war.
• Otherwise, any alliances among the Great Powers would probably be intended purely to preserve the balance of power, not as a result of any real loyalty.

Things are probably a lot more complicated than that, and the overall picture will doubtless change and get more detailed as formal applications come into the OOC thread. But those would be my best guesses based on the worldbuilding that we've done so far.

[New Granadeseret]

OOC with proper application is up!

Also, the following areas are free for nation-claiming, due to lack of followup on interest:

-Brazil
-The Italies
-The Germanies

And lack of interest in playing as the Spainish Empire means that they're being put ON HOLD in terms of Great Power status. They'll be elevated back up to one in the event nobody can/wants to make another GP. As such, Latin America's situation is still in a flux.

I need to eat lunch now, but when I get back I'll have a summery of the global situation (cannon) up.

[Plzen]

-snip-

Taking a couple minutes for proofreading would really improve the professionalism of the OOC thread.

Perhaps after you come back from lunch?

[New Granadeseret]

-snip-

Taking a couple minutes for proofreading would really improve the professionalism of the OOC thread.

Perhaps after you come back from lunch?

Duely noted. I want to review all the stuff I've missed here in the Worldbuilding thread first... though I should probably close it pretty quickly and move everything over to the OCC.

[The Knights of Azorea]

Any comment on my China stuff? I'm planning on playing a southern governor/warlord around Canton, attempting to forge alliances with modernised and westernised nations to reunite China. If the premise of the Qing empire collapsing, as discussed in my post earlier, is alright, I'll get to work finishing the rest of the AH, and throw up an application for the nation.

[New Granadeseret]

Any comment on my China stuff? I'm planning on playing a southern governor/warlord around Canton, attempting to forge alliances with modernised and westernised nations to reunite China. If the premise of the Qing empire collapsing, as discussed in my post earlier, is alright, I'll get to work finishing the rest of the AH, and throw up an application for the nation.

Right, right, I should hit the world building stuff first before I finish the summery. Duh. Sorry, my mind is half in something else right now.

To be honest, if we had an NPC Japan or other "corpse state" for the Great Powers to play the historical China game in, I'd certainly accept the idea. However, given we have a Unified Shogunate and no real other big neutral markets to hit, I feel we kind of need to preserve the Qing so they can carved up/collapsed based on Western sensibilities (Or, hope against hope, kick them out). If you altered this to be a provincial governor operating more or independently within the Qing framework (A Substate/region), and are subservient enough to Great Power merchants enough that Beijing knows they'll protect you if they ever tried to bring the province in line, that would would probably fit in better.

Indeed, perhaps it could be fit into the timeline with its version of the Opium/Drug wars. I made a comment awhile back that the Ottomans would be smuggling Hashish into China (and the Spainish/Americans might try to make use of South American cocaine), so together with the Brits we probably could write up a convincing "Drug Wars" where a joint naval force and marines manage to seize key locations on the coast and squeeze legaland small territorial concessions out of the Imperial government. Maybe even twice or three times, expanding the scope with each one. If you converted to Islam or Anglicanism (or at least allowed major missionary activity), you might even be able to get a guarantee based on a "The Emperor can't persecute our co-religionists" pledge we snuck into one of the peace treaties.

After all, if his armies burn down a mosque or church, there'd be hell to pay. I hear the Summer Palace is quite flammable...

I feel like getting up a map with claims is pretty important. Also, I've decided I can play as the Rattanakosin Dynasty in Siam. I would like to talk to GB and France about where they own in Southeast Asia.

As much as I like mapmaking, I'm currently in a spot where that's... difficult. I can give a full territorial/nation list to a mapmaker of how things currently stand, but the actual filling it in would have to be done separately.

Also, is that as a Great Power, as we discussed the potential of earlier? If so, I'll have to adjust things so Latin America is (mostly) free for anybody who is willing to thumb their nose at the USA to exploit and influence; everybody knows South America is at least fair game economy-wise and Spain is no longer one. That opens up ALOT of space on the map.

[New Granadeseret]

“The historian is almost tempted to conclude that between 1890 and 1914 France possessed the only really skillful diplomats in Europe.”

- D. J. Goodspeed, The German Wars: 1914-1945

Since the German Reich or its equivalent never really formed, the French humiliation in 1871 didn't happen, the Second Schleswig War of 1864 didn't happen or happened differently, the United States is actively supporting European liberalism, Russia's cut into splinter states, and presumably the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 didn't happen the way it did IRL, the balance of power and the system of alliances/rivalries in Europe is probably very, very different.

How would it look like, in rough outlines?

Well, this is obviously still pretty vague, and to some extent I'm thinking out loud.

My sense from the thread is that Britain is still the hegemon, and its naval power means that it is under no strategic obligation to ally with anyone; it can serve its RL role as a stabilizing agent, jumping in on whatever side is disadvantaged in the balance of power in order to keep the equation balanced. France is probably the most powerful country on the continent, considering its victory over Prussia. Given the collapse of Prussia, Austria-Hungary is probably France's biggest continental rival; if Italy is united and Spain held on to its empire, then those four countries would be the major powers in Western Europe. It's hard to say exactly how the system of alliances among those powers would play out; smaller countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden-Norway might well have a role to play in pressuring their larger neighbors to remain civil.

Russia would likely be in a revanchist mood, eyeing Poland and Finland, but no one in the West would want to see the Bear reclaim its former power; the threat of Russian reconquests might be the only thing that could bring the Western powers together. On the other hand, since the Crimean War, real power in the East would lie with the Ottomans. We might see a realignment of Russian policy to check Ottoman expansion in the Balkans, which would also be an Austrian priority. On the other hand, Britain would need to preserve its access to the Suez Canal, which would make the Ottomans the only power with real leverage over the hegemon.

Britain and France would likely both have colonial empires in Africa and Asia. This competition, plus France's dominance on the Continent, would probably be enough to re-ignite the old Anglo-French rivalry. Spain's empire is almost entirely in the New World, which means that its major rival is the United States, which has been covertly chipping away at its more impoverished provinces for several decades. In space, the US and France are probably jockeying for dominance on Mars, while Britain is likely the uncontested hegemon on Venus - though Austria may also have interests there. And in East Asia, Britain, France, and the US are probably all competing for influence.

So these countries would be at odds pretty much all the time:

• Britain and France
• France and Austria
• Spain and the USA

These countries would be rivals, but would also have reasons to work together:

• Austria and Russia, against the Ottomans
• The Ottomans and Britain, against any threat to the Suez Canal
• Britain and the USA, against France on Mars
• Sweden-Norway, Denmark, and Poland, against Russian revanchism

These countries would be natural friends:

• The USA and any republics, even small ones like Switzerland or new ones like Poland (the success of the January Uprising would probably have created a Polish national republic in the spirit of '48)
• Britain and the second-tier powers of Europe, like Sweden-Norway and the Netherlands, because they all share an interest in preventing a general European war.
• Otherwise, any alliances among the Great Powers would probably be intended purely to preserve the balance of power, not as a result of any real loyalty.

Things are probably a lot more complicated than that, and the overall picture will doubtless change and get more detailed as formal applications come into the OOC thread. But those would be my best guesses based on the worldbuilding that we've done so far.

Well, Austria is a bit of a toss up; after all, they'd prefer THEY be the dominant power in Eastern Europe, or at the very least not have anybody strong enough to hold them down (I.E. no Napoleonic hegemons). As such, a Revachist Great Power Russia with Pan-Slavic tendencies would be considered just as bad as a Great Power Ottoman Empire. In fact, they're in the best position to exploit Ukrainian fears of Moscow to gain a preferred position in that state they have direct land access and armies that can, in theory, protect them from an invasion and aren't patrons of their Crimean rivals. Poland and S-N are a bit more of a toss-up, but I imagine they'd lean Pro-Ottoman if they're afraid of/want to chip further away at Russian power. Poland, in particular, probably wants to take a bite out of Ukraine and White Ruthania, meaning they'd want to align with somebody dedicated to making Russia weaker rather than just maintaining her and who dosen't have ties to the Ukraine.

The Germanies, as you'll see in the summery, are a madhouse of small states running around like a black eagle with its head cut off (Prussia, as far as I can piece it together, lost enough wars that its manpower would be pretty much gone. Add that to the weak financial base of the state and lost of the Rhinelands and you've got bankrupacy and economic ruin if they tried to even maintain a shadow of its former glory. Likely to the anger of an elderly writer named Karl who had... collectivist tendencies and was living at the time). That would certainly add to the flames between Austria and France, meaning Austria also needs to be wary about its southern frontier lest it anger everybody around it and they start to take a closer consideration of weather or not its minorities have the right to be free. Having two great powers aligned aligned against you, with no others nearby to protect you (Even if the GB wanted to) is not a smart move

Other than that, I think this is pretty accurate. Sans the parts related to Spain, who since we don't have a player for it is still in limbo so far as its great power status is concerned.

[The Knights of Azorea]

Hmm. I can certainly work with an increasingly Autonomous vassal state of a Crumbling Qing Empire. Perhaps concession port regions were sequestered off and largely removed from standard power structures after the problem of drug smuggling became apparent, to avoid contaminating the remainder of the Empire? Isolationism is a fine art if done properly, and the casualties of a few port side prefectures are nothing compared to sacrificing the majesty of the Son of Heaven. This is going to require a bit more work than I'd planned, but give me a while and I'll get the relevant history written up, detailing the tremendous damage done to the Qing by outside encroachment.

[New Granadeseret]

“The historian is almost tempted to conclude that between 1890 and 1914 France possessed the only really skillful diplomats in Europe.”

- D. J. Goodspeed, The German Wars: 1914-1945

Since the German Reich or its equivalent never really formed, the French humiliation in 1871 didn't happen, the Second Schleswig War of 1864 didn't happen or happened differently, the United States is actively supporting European liberalism, Russia's cut into splinter states, and presumably the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 didn't happen the way it did IRL, the balance of power and the system of alliances/rivalries in Europe is probably very, very different.

How would it look like, in rough outlines?

Well, this is obviously still pretty vague, and to some extent I'm thinking out loud.

My sense from the thread is that Britain is still the hegemon, and its naval power means that it is under no strategic obligation to ally with anyone; it can serve its RL role as a stabilizing agent, jumping in on whatever side is disadvantaged in the balance of power in order to keep the equation balanced. France is probably the most powerful country on the continent, considering its victory over Prussia. Given the collapse of Prussia, Austria-Hungary is probably France's biggest continental rival; if Italy is united and Spain held on to its empire, then those four countries would be the major powers in Western Europe. It's hard to say exactly how the system of alliances among those powers would play out; smaller countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden-Norway might well have a role to play in pressuring their larger neighbors to remain civil.

Russia would likely be in a revanchist mood, eyeing Poland and Finland, but no one in the West would want to see the Bear reclaim its former power; the threat of Russian reconquests might be the only thing that could bring the Western powers together. On the other hand, since the Crimean War, real power in the East would lie with the Ottomans. We might see a realignment of Russian policy to check Ottoman expansion in the Balkans, which would also be an Austrian priority. On the other hand, Britain would need to preserve its access to the Suez Canal, which would make the Ottomans the only power with real leverage over the hegemon.

Britain and France would likely both have colonial empires in Africa and Asia. This competition, plus France's dominance on the Continent, would probably be enough to re-ignite the old Anglo-French rivalry. Spain's empire is almost entirely in the New World, which means that its major rival is the United States, which has been covertly chipping away at its more impoverished provinces for several decades. In space, the US and France are probably jockeying for dominance on Mars, while Britain is likely the uncontested hegemon on Venus - though Austria may also have interests there. And in East Asia, Britain, France, and the US are probably all competing for influence.

So these countries would be at odds pretty much all the time:

• Britain and France
• France and Austria
• Spain and the USA

These countries would be rivals, but would also have reasons to work together:

• Austria and Russia, against the Ottomans
• The Ottomans and Britain, against any threat to the Suez Canal
• Britain and the USA, against France on Mars
• Sweden-Norway, Denmark, and Poland, against Russian revanchism

These countries would be natural friends:

• The USA and any republics, even small ones like Switzerland or new ones like Poland (the success of the January Uprising would probably have created a Polish national republic in the spirit of '48)
• Britain and the second-tier powers of Europe, like Sweden-Norway and the Netherlands, because they all share an interest in preventing a general European war.
• Otherwise, any alliances among the Great Powers would probably be intended purely to preserve the balance of power, not as a result of any real loyalty.

Things are probably a lot more complicated than that, and the overall picture will doubtless change and get more detailed as formal applications come into the OOC thread. But those would be my best guesses based on the worldbuilding that we've done so far.

Fairly good, though (This may be my fault for not getting my summery up ), nobody really seems to be considering the Ottomans in terms of them being a Great Power (I.E.; having global reach, interest, and relations) Here's a some basic regional tidbits

Western Europe: The seat of two (potentially three) Great Powers, Western Europe is simultaneously the most active region in The Great Game as well as the most peaceful. Industry and arms races, espionage, cultural one-upsmanship, and decisions on hard diplomacy all prevail here, but since the Great Powers don't frequently get into total wars with one another (Colonial skirmishes and proxy wars, they'll go all day long, but nobody wants a repeat of the Napoleonic Wars with Nappy IV playing the role of his Great-Uncle) and their governments are strong and stable the region hasen't seen armed conflict in nearly a century. The Low Counteries are really the only zone of competition, and Rotterdam has become one of the largest and probably highest income-per-capita city in Europe as a "Free Port"; acting as an unofficial tariff-dodge between the French and British global economies and proving a useful shipping provider for unaligned counteries.

Centeral Europe Long ago disregarded as "Power Kegs of Europe", the Germanies and Italies are made up of a patchwork quilt of qurrielling principalities; in some cases having broken down and dissolved more than they wer pre-Napoleon. The western poritions along the Rhine are largely French-dominated ever since the Rhinelands were lost to Prussia, though contested by Austrian influnce to the south. The further north you go, however, the more likely the tiny states are to tie themselves to some lesser forgein patron or co-operate with one another, resisting French hegemony in the region. The Prussian Eagle, however, is basically just a plucked carcass sitting dying on the Elbe; the destruction of her army during the wars of the mid-19th century and the lack of material wealth in her state having essentially left the Kings to become bankrupt trying to maintain the illusion of power. Nowhere more so then on the streets of Brandenburg do the people carry the red banner, mixing the dangerous ideologies of Socialism with the traditional Prussian militarism and a strict Protestant work ethic.

Eastern Europe: Ever since the 2nd Congress of Vienna lead to the "pruning" of Russia's western provinces, Eastern Europe has swung back from the era of dominating hegemons to an uncomfortable series of claims and counter-claims by the various successor states. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth lays claims to parts of Western Ukraine, Austrian Galicia, and most of White Ruthania. The Prussians want to reclaim the regions of Poland they lost during the 1st Congress to gain back some semblance of glory and power. The Ukrainians want access to the Black Sea and at least some connection to Austrian Ruthania. White Ruthania, struggling to find its own national identity, is torn between those who want to return to Russia, join Poland, or remain independent: Finland suffering the a similar dilemma between those who favor total independence and those seeking closer ties with S-N for historical/Pan-Scandinavian/Anti-Russian sentiments.

Africa: Somewhat similar to IRL: the Scramble for Africa has been delayed somewhat, as the public's hearts and minds (and colonial resources) in Britain and France were captured by the "Scramble for Mars" and space flight in general. However, Western Europeans are starting to take notice of the potential riches of the African continent following the effective Ottoman efforts on it's eastern side and the discovery of both etheric sands in the deep interior, and the riches of the Congo becoming public knowledge. In the North, Algers has a come under French control, though nominally there's still a Bey out their in the deseret leading the interior resistance and calling for Ottoman protection. It's a legal technicality the two nations don't like bringing up, but is a small running sore in their relationship. Especially when Tunis; a that isen't quite centralized into the Ottoman state structure as it really should be, seems to be encouched on by an ambitious French or Italian merchant, or harbors and smuggles guns to Tuareg tribesmen or Algieran bushwhackers

Latin America: Either a tropical Spainish paradise or a chaotic mess of states ruled by despotic, tinpot regemines for fun and profit (of said tinpot despots and their forgein creditors). Depends on if Spain is a great power or not.

South East/Centeral Asia: The British dominate India, of course. Granted, the local princes have some autonomy (particularly the Muslim ones; though not nearly at the level of British control over the former direct dominions of the RHEIC), and its here their influnce bumps up against Russia in terms of Afghanistan and the Centeral Asian Khanates, as well as Ottoman religious and economic interests (Britain, I imagine, wants to see them as British vassals. Russia wants to annex them, the Ottomans want to keep them free). This is more for strategic and prestige reasons though; the region isen't the most economically productive in the world.

East Asia: Japan is in the middle of internal conflict and reform; managed in a mish-mash by the collective hands of all the other Great Powers. Qing China is crumbling under its own weights, debt, and drug problems, with Beijing struggling to keep control over the regional leaders and facing increasing Reactionary opposition at home to "Kick out the Forgeiners!"; whom many Chinese see as the source of the issues. Korea languishes in obscurity as the Europeans play with her bigger neighbors; a convenient place for lesser Powers to try to stretch their muscle away from the competition. The Philippines and Dutch East Indies act as the farest reaches of the Spainish and Dutch Empires, respectively: both where they're most vulnerable but also some of their strategically most important positions, giving both powers a global naval reach they'd otherwise lack.

[Reverend Norv]

Fairly good, though (This may be my fault for not getting my summery up ), nobody really seems to be considering the Ottomans in terms of them being a Great Power (I.E.; having global reach, interest, and relations) Here's a some basic regional tidbits

Western Europe: The seat of two (potentially three) Great Powers, Western Europe is simultaneously the most active region in The Great Game as well as the most peaceful. Industry and arms races, espionage, cultural one-upsmanship, and decisions on hard diplomacy all prevail here, but since the Great Powers don't frequently get into total wars with one another (Colonial skirmishes and proxy wars, they'll go all day long, but nobody wants a repeat of the Napoleonic Wars with Nappy IV playing the role of his Great-Uncle) and their governments are strong and stable the region hasen't seen armed conflict in nearly a century. The Low Counteries are really the only zone of competition, and Rotterdam has become one of the largest and probably highest income-per-capita city in Europe as a "Free Port"; acting as an unofficial tariff-dodge between the French and British global economies and proving a useful shipping provider for unaligned counteries.

Centeral Europe Long ago disregarded as "Power Kegs of Europe", the Germanies and Italies are made up of a patchwork quilt of qurrielling principalities; in some cases having broken down and dissolved more than they wer pre-Napoleon. The western poritions along the Rhine are largely French-dominated ever since the Rhinelands were lost to Prussia, though contested by Austrian influnce to the south. The further north you go, however, the more likely the tiny states are to tie themselves to some lesser forgein patron or co-operate with one another, resisting French hegemony in the region. The Prussian Eagle, however, is basically just a plucked carcass sitting dying on the Elbe; the destruction of her army during the wars of the mid-19th century and the lack of material wealth in her state having essentially left the Kings to become bankrupt trying to maintain the illusion of power. Nowhere more so then on the streets of Brandenburg do the people carry the red banner, mixing the dangerous ideologies of Socialism with the traditional Prussian militarism and a strict Protestant work ethic.

Eastern Europe: Ever since the 2nd Congress of Vienna lead to the "pruning" of Russia's western provinces, Eastern Europe has swung back from the era of dominating hegemons to an uncomfortable series of claims and counter-claims by the various successor states. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth lays claims to parts of Western Ukraine, Austrian Galicia, and most of White Ruthania. The Prussians want to reclaim the regions of Poland they lost during the 1st Congress to gain back some semblance of glory and power. The Ukrainians want access to the Black Sea and at least some connection to Austrian Ruthania. White Ruthania, struggling to find its own national identity, is torn between those who want to return to Russia, join Poland, or remain independent: Finland suffering the a similar dilemma between those who favor total independence and those seeking closer ties with S-N for historical/Pan-Scandinavian/Anti-Russian sentiments.

Africa: Somewhat similar to IRL: the Scramble for Africa has been delayed somewhat, as the public's hearts and minds (and colonial resources) in Britain and France were captured by the "Scramble for Mars" and space flight in general. However, Western Europeans are starting to take notice of the potential riches of the African continent following the effective Ottoman efforts on it's eastern side and the discovery of both etheric sands in the deep interior, and the riches of the Congo becoming public knowledge. In the North, Algers has a come under French control, though nominally there's still a Bey out their in the deseret leading the interior resistance and calling for Ottoman protection. It's a legal technicality the two nations don't like bringing up, but is a small running sore in their relationship. Especially when Tunis; a that isen't quite centralized into the Ottoman state structure as it really should be, seems to be encouched on by an ambitious French or Italian merchant, or harbors and smuggles guns to Tuareg tribesmen or Algieran bushwhackers

Latin America: Either a tropical Spainish paradise or a chaotic mess of states ruled by despotic, tinpot regemines for fun and profit (of said tinpot despots and their forgein creditors). Depends on if Spain is a great power or not.

South East/Centeral Asia: The British dominate India, of course. Granted, the local princes have some autonomy (particularly the Muslim ones; though not nearly at the level of British control over the former direct dominions of the RHEIC), and its here their influnce bumps up against Russia in terms of Afghanistan and the Centeral Asian Khanates, as well as Ottoman religious and economic interests (Britain, I imagine, wants to see them as British vassals. Russia wants to annex them, the Ottomans want to keep them free). This is more for strategic and prestige reasons though; the region isen't the most economically productive in the world.

East Asia: Japan is in the middle of internal conflict and reform; managed in a mish-mash by the collective hands of all the other Great Powers. Qing China is crumbling under its own weights, debt, and drug problems, with Beijing struggling to keep control over the regional leaders and facing increasing Reactionary opposition at home to "Kick out the Forgeiners!"; whom many Chinese see as the source of the issues. Korea languishes in obscurity as the Europeans play with her bigger neighbors; a convenient place for lesser Powers to try to stretch their muscle away from the competition. The Philippines and Dutch East Indies act as the farest reaches of the Spainish and Dutch Empires, respectively: both where they're most vulnerable but also some of their strategically most important positions, giving both powers a global naval reach they'd otherwise lack.

I've described Korea as an informal American protectorate since I first posted my timeline. Moreover, if Spain is not a great power, then a lot more of those tinpot Latin American regimes would also be American puppet republics. So I'd like to request some clarification on those two points of tension with this description. Otherwise, this looks great to me!

[South Vict]

Fall of Ethiopia

In early December, in the First year of Menelik II Reign, the son of Judah ascended to the Heavens, having succumbed to a stroke or some other malady while in the Imperial Winter residence. It could not be known at the time, but his death would mark the beginning of the final death spiral of Ethiopian dominance over Africa. News of his death spread out in waves over the various provinces of the Ethiopian Empire, radiating out across the vast and populous domains of the House of Solomon, from Addis Ababa to Shewa. At first, there was a lull, as the empire, or at least the imperial family mourned its lost patriarch. The Emperor had not been a genius, but he had held the empire together, and no significant collapse had taken place under his watch. The ongoing rot of bureaucratic decline had continued, and Islam had further infested the country, but that was only to be expected. There was the usual rush through the palace, in the weeks following the death of the Emperor, as men tried to gain power for themselves, There was no Heir. Men have fought the Country for Power and Glory. There is no Unified Ethiopia ever to be founded but some Warlord Era like State but in Africa.

Earlier in the year, The Ethiopian Empire has been a Dominant Power in Africa ever since Europeans arrived from the North. However, They were ruled by a House of Solomon named after a Jewish King from the Middle East. The House of Solomon was founded by Menelik I, He was a Son of Solomon and Queen Sheba of Israel. The dynasty was passed down from Generation to Generation until the 19th Century that's where the Dynasty has come to the end. Following by a 1867 British Expedition to Ethiopia Emperor Tewodros II of Ethiopia also known as Theodore has imprisoned some Missionaries of the British Expedition Force to bring the British Government attention thus following a siege of Magdala Tewodros II Commit Suicide afterwards. He was succeeded by Tekle Giyorgis II. Everything in this timeline remains the same until 1889 when Menelik II has died from a serious Illness. The Country was split into diffrent Provinces turning it into a Civil War. Luckily his son or Prince Alemayehu haven't died from a Illness but was able to lead the Country once again after his departure. He later return to his Kingdom and later went on a Military Campaign to unite Ethiopia from various Warlords. This have led to the present day of Ethiopia.

That's all I can come up with right now. This should be good for now.

[New Granadeseret]

Fairly good, though (This may be my fault for not getting my summery up ), nobody really seems to be considering the Ottomans in terms of them being a Great Power (I.E.; having global reach, interest, and relations) Here's a some basic regional tidbits

Western Europe: The seat of two (potentially three) Great Powers, Western Europe is simultaneously the most active region in The Great Game as well as the most peaceful. Industry and arms races, espionage, cultural one-upsmanship, and decisions on hard diplomacy all prevail here, but since the Great Powers don't frequently get into total wars with one another (Colonial skirmishes and proxy wars, they'll go all day long, but nobody wants a repeat of the Napoleonic Wars with Nappy IV playing the role of his Great-Uncle) and their governments are strong and stable the region hasen't seen armed conflict in nearly a century. The Low Counteries are really the only zone of competition, and Rotterdam has become one of the largest and probably highest income-per-capita city in Europe as a "Free Port"; acting as an unofficial tariff-dodge between the French and British global economies and proving a useful shipping provider for unaligned counteries.

Centeral Europe Long ago disregarded as "Power Kegs of Europe", the Germanies and Italies are made up of a patchwork quilt of qurrielling principalities; in some cases having broken down and dissolved more than they wer pre-Napoleon. The western poritions along the Rhine are largely French-dominated ever since the Rhinelands were lost to Prussia, though contested by Austrian influnce to the south. The further north you go, however, the more likely the tiny states are to tie themselves to some lesser forgein patron or co-operate with one another, resisting French hegemony in the region. The Prussian Eagle, however, is basically just a plucked carcass sitting dying on the Elbe; the destruction of her army during the wars of the mid-19th century and the lack of material wealth in her state having essentially left the Kings to become bankrupt trying to maintain the illusion of power. Nowhere more so then on the streets of Brandenburg do the people carry the red banner, mixing the dangerous ideologies of Socialism with the traditional Prussian militarism and a strict Protestant work ethic.

Eastern Europe: Ever since the 2nd Congress of Vienna lead to the "pruning" of Russia's western provinces, Eastern Europe has swung back from the era of dominating hegemons to an uncomfortable series of claims and counter-claims by the various successor states. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth lays claims to parts of Western Ukraine, Austrian Galicia, and most of White Ruthania. The Prussians want to reclaim the regions of Poland they lost during the 1st Congress to gain back some semblance of glory and power. The Ukrainians want access to the Black Sea and at least some connection to Austrian Ruthania. White Ruthania, struggling to find its own national identity, is torn between those who want to return to Russia, join Poland, or remain independent: Finland suffering the a similar dilemma between those who favor total independence and those seeking closer ties with S-N for historical/Pan-Scandinavian/Anti-Russian sentiments.

Africa: Somewhat similar to IRL: the Scramble for Africa has been delayed somewhat, as the public's hearts and minds (and colonial resources) in Britain and France were captured by the "Scramble for Mars" and space flight in general. However, Western Europeans are starting to take notice of the potential riches of the African continent following the effective Ottoman efforts on it's eastern side and the discovery of both etheric sands in the deep interior, and the riches of the Congo becoming public knowledge. In the North, Algers has a come under French control, though nominally there's still a Bey out their in the deseret leading the interior resistance and calling for Ottoman protection. It's a legal technicality the two nations don't like bringing up, but is a small running sore in their relationship. Especially when Tunis; a that isen't quite centralized into the Ottoman state structure as it really should be, seems to be encouched on by an ambitious French or Italian merchant, or harbors and smuggles guns to Tuareg tribesmen or Algieran bushwhackers

Latin America: Either a tropical Spainish paradise or a chaotic mess of states ruled by despotic, tinpot regemines for fun and profit (of said tinpot despots and their forgein creditors). Depends on if Spain is a great power or not.

South East/Centeral Asia: The British dominate India, of course. Granted, the local princes have some autonomy (particularly the Muslim ones; though not nearly at the level of British control over the former direct dominions of the RHEIC), and its here their influnce bumps up against Russia in terms of Afghanistan and the Centeral Asian Khanates, as well as Ottoman religious and economic interests (Britain, I imagine, wants to see them as British vassals. Russia wants to annex them, the Ottomans want to keep them free). This is more for strategic and prestige reasons though; the region isen't the most economically productive in the world.

East Asia: Japan is in the middle of internal conflict and reform; managed in a mish-mash by the collective hands of all the other Great Powers. Qing China is crumbling under its own weights, debt, and drug problems, with Beijing struggling to keep control over the regional leaders and facing increasing Reactionary opposition at home to "Kick out the Forgeiners!"; whom many Chinese see as the source of the issues. Korea languishes in obscurity as the Europeans play with her bigger neighbors; a convenient place for lesser Powers to try to stretch their muscle away from the competition. The Philippines and Dutch East Indies act as the farest reaches of the Spainish and Dutch Empires, respectively: both where they're most vulnerable but also some of their strategically most important positions, giving both powers a global naval reach they'd otherwise lack.

I've described Korea as an informal American protectorate since I first posted my timeline. Moreover, if Spain is not a great power, then a lot more of those tinpot Latin American regimes would also be American puppet republics. So I'd like to request some clarification on those two points of tension with this description. Otherwise, this looks great to me!

Yah, about that...

If Spain isen't a great power, I am going to have to ask you to do some cutbacks in terms of your trans-American influnce. Simply in terms of the level of power/economic might, I can't have you with THAT many more fingers stuck in pies than the other Great Powers, and total hegemony over the Americas takes up a pretty big chunk of your "budget". Korea is just the most obvious space for savings.

In fact, I was already a little hesitant after seeing the sheer size of your Marian concessions list even with Latin America under the Spainish yolk.

Fall of Ethiopia

In early December, in the First year of Menelik II Reign, the son of Judah ascended to the Heavens, having succumbed to a stroke or some other malady while in the Imperial Winter residence. It could not be known at the time, but his death would mark the beginning of the final death spiral of Ethiopian dominance over Africa. News of his death spread out in waves over the various provinces of the Ethiopian Empire, radiating out across the vast and populous domains of the House of Solomon, from Addis Ababa to Shewa. At first, there was a lull, as the empire, or at least the imperial family mourned its lost patriarch. The Emperor had not been a genius, but he had held the empire together, and no significant collapse had taken place under his watch. The ongoing rot of bureaucratic decline had continued, and Islam had further infested the country, but that was only to be expected. There was the usual rush through the palace, in the weeks following the death of the Emperor, as men tried to gain power for themselves, There was no Heir. Men have fought the Country for Power and Glory. There is no Unified Ethiopia ever to be founded but some Warlord Era like State but in Africa.

Earlier in the year, The Ethiopian Empire has been a Dominant Power in Africa ever since Europeans arrived from the North. However, They were ruled by a House of Solomon named after a Jewish King from the Middle East. The House of Solomon was founded by Menelik I, He was a Son of Solomon and Queen Sheba of Israel. The dynasty was passed down from Generation to Generation until the 19th Century that's where the Dynasty has come to the end. Following by a 1867 British Expedition to Ethiopia Emperor Tewodros II of Ethiopia also known as Theodore has imprisoned some Missionaries of the British Expedition Force to bring the British Government attention thus following a siege of Magdala Tewodros II Commit Suicide afterwards. He was succeeded by Tekle Giyorgis II. Everything in this timeline remains the same until 1889 when Menelik II has died from a serious Illness. The Country was split into diffrent Provinces turning it into a Civil War. Luckily his son or Prince Alemayehu haven't died from a Illness but was able to lead the Country once again after his departure. He later return to his Kingdom and later went on a Military Campaign to unite Ethiopia from various Warlords. This have led to the present day of Ethiopia.

That's all I can come up with right now. This should be good for now.

Vict, our critique is of your skills as a writer. This is example of that issue, from your capitalization of alone much less the lack of conherance in the content. You are rejected, and I suggest getting in some practice in a lower-tier RP first (or independently).

[Reverend Norv]

Yah, about that...

If Spain isen't a great power, I am going to have to ask you to do some cutbacks in terms of your trans-American influnce. Simply in terms of the level of power/economic might, I can't have you with THAT many more fingers stuck in pies than the other Great Powers, and total hegemony over the Americas takes up a pretty big chunk of your "budget". Korea is just the most obvious space for savings.

In fact, I was already a little hesitant after seeing the sheer size of your Marian concessions list even with Latin America under the Spainish yolk.

A few points about this. First, I see the US as having about as much global influence as France. France has a major colony in Algeria, a bunch of minor colonies in Africa and Asia, and a substantial presence on Mars. The US has a major puppet in Korea, a bunch of minor puppets in Latin America, and a substantial presence on Mars. That seems fair to me. As for the list of Martian treaties, that should be taken in perspective: based on the map that you posted a while back, there are close to a hundred city-states on Mars. Twelve of those are American puppets; that hardly adds up to an overwhelming presence. I don't see how the US has its finger in so many more pies than the other Great Powers.

EDIT: To be clear, in the absence of the Spanish Empire, the US still wouldn't have total hegemony over the Americas. The larger countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and Colombia/Venezuela could still chart their own paths, especially with support from the European powers. The US wouldn't like it, but it couldn't possibly control the entire hemisphere, no matter how much it preaches about the Monroe Doctrine. So minor countries that are vulnerable to American pressure would be more likely to be US-aligned, but the larger ones would have much more freedom of action. That's all I'm really saying with regard to an independent Latin America.

[New Granadeseret]

Yah, about that...

If Spain isen't a great power, I am going to have to ask you to do some cutbacks in terms of your trans-American influnce. Simply in terms of the level of power/economic might, I can't have you with THAT many more fingers stuck in pies than the other Great Powers, and total hegemony over the Americas takes up a pretty big chunk of your "budget". Korea is just the most obvious space for savings.

In fact, I was already a little hesitant after seeing the sheer size of your Marian concessions list even with Latin America under the Spainish yolk.

A few points about this. First, I see the US as having about as much global influence as France. France has a major colony in Algeria, a bunch of minor colonies in Africa and Asia, and a substantial presence on Mars. The US has a major puppet in Korea, a bunch of minor puppets in Latin America, and a substantial presence on Mars. That seems fair to me. As for the list of Martian treaties, that should be taken in perspective: based on the map that you posted a while back, there are close to a hundred city-states on Mars. Twelve of those are American puppets; that hardly adds up to an overwhelming presence. I don't see how the US has its finger in so many more pies than the other Great Powers.

EDIT: To be clear, in the absence of the Spanish Empire, the US still wouldn't have total hegemony over the Americas. The larger countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and Colombia/Venezuela could still chart their own paths, especially with support from the European powers. The US wouldn't like it, but it couldn't possibly control the entire hemisphere, no matter how much it preaches about the Monroe Doctrine. So minor countries that are vulnerable to American pressure would be more likely to be US-aligned, but the larger ones would have much more freedom of action. That's all I'm really saying with regard to an independent Latin America.

Alright, from the way I was reading your muscular forgein policy/degree of enforcement of the Monroe doctrine I got the impression you would lean a lot more heavily on the Latin American governments than the US did IRL: to insure they were actual democracies rather than military dictatorship and to keep the Europeans from doing their colonization/Emperor-Maximillian-ing (Especially since both France and GB also have a great deal more forgein sway). Though I'm still a little concerned about just how well the US is going to be able to defend its position in Korea, I can easily accept it so long as there's a recognition the bulk of US influnce stops south of the Istmus of Panama. That really solves all the concerns about the balance.

Though, I woulden't call Algers and Korea an equitable claims.

[Reverend Norv]

A few points about this. First, I see the US as having about as much global influence as France. France has a major colony in Algeria, a bunch of minor colonies in Africa and Asia, and a substantial presence on Mars. The US has a major puppet in Korea, a bunch of minor puppets in Latin America, and a substantial presence on Mars. That seems fair to me. As for the list of Martian treaties, that should be taken in perspective: based on the map that you posted a while back, there are close to a hundred city-states on Mars. Twelve of those are American puppets; that hardly adds up to an overwhelming presence. I don't see how the US has its finger in so many more pies than the other Great Powers.

EDIT: To be clear, in the absence of the Spanish Empire, the US still wouldn't have total hegemony over the Americas. The larger countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and Colombia/Venezuela could still chart their own paths, especially with support from the European powers. The US wouldn't like it, but it couldn't possibly control the entire hemisphere, no matter how much it preaches about the Monroe Doctrine. So minor countries that are vulnerable to American pressure would be more likely to be US-aligned, but the larger ones would have much more freedom of action. That's all I'm really saying with regard to an independent Latin America.

Alright, from the way I was reading your muscular forgein policy/degree of enforcement of the Monroe doctrine I got the impression you would lean a lot more heavily on the Latin American governments than the US did IRL: to insure they were actual democracies rather than military dictatorship and to keep the Europeans from doing their colonization/Emperor-Maximillian-ing (Especially since both France and GB also have a great deal more forgein sway). Though I'm still a little concerned about just how well the US is going to be able to defend its position in Korea, I can easily accept it so long as there's a recognition the bulk of US influnce stops south of the Istmus of Panama

That's a deal. The Central American Republic and the Dominican Republic are both north of the Isthmus anyway. South of that point, the US competes for influence on an equal footing with the other Great Powers.

[New Granadeseret]

By the by, I probably should at least get the Ottoman's main sphere of influnce clarified before this all starts, on the same model.

-Big Colony/Protectorate: The Eja'let/Eyalet of Azraq al-Şehzade (The Blue Prince); the Ottoman territory south of Egypt, compromising the drainage of the White Nile to the lake of the same name at the river's source and the surrounding area (Roughly equivalent to the Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda, northern Tanzania, and a third of inland Kenya) is the star of the Caliphate's African-focused ventures. Having integrated the smaller sultanate and tribal chiefdom into the Ottoman state through conversion, subversion of the state apperatius by Ottoman-trained beucrats and military advisors, and commercial integration, the region benefits by the endless water provided by the Nile and the steady days of its near-equator location, allowing for an effective solar-boiler powered mega-train; the "Cangara to Constantinople" route surpassing even the famous "From Belgrade to Barsa" promise of the Empire's other steel spine, the Orient Express. Able to exploit the security and bulk of this land trade, the region has become a huge source of tropical crops (rubber and coffee in particular; poor Muslims laborers drink the thin black stuff like Western workers drink cheap beer. Only its a stimulant, not a depressant, so their employers don't mind!), hardwoods, and cheap labor for industry further up the Nile or in the Levant

-Main region of interest: East Africa, though also has a strong commercial presence in East Asia. Kuwait and the ports of the Persian Gulf, as well as the regions around the Suez Canal, make the Ottomans mainly east-facing so far as her Imperial and commercial ambitions go; the Mediterranean and bulk of the African continent preventing her from having interest in the Americas or West Africa. The Caliphate's presence in space is strongest on Venus; preferring to "enlighten" the Lizardmen into laborers in a strange mixture of the old Spainish mission system, a "White Man's Burden" philosophy applied to the Caliph and his duty to act as the Prophet's successor and, thus, carry his burden as Allah's messenger, and settler colonialism. Palaces in miniature are often built for the Beys who govern the various estates, the lizards treating them almost as prophets and benevolent givers of divine gifts (Tools, advanced raw materials, homes, etc.) above and behond what they had ever been able to make themselves. Though still miserable by the standards of earth, and some imams being rather uncomfortable at the idea that these "Muslims" see the Caliph effectively as Allah (An effectively All-Powerful being in the heavens, to whom even the greatest of creatures they know submit), it makes for a far more loyal workforce than the Confederate exiles can muster. Thus far, the two groups have kept enough distance from one another that conflicts don't usually break out, but occasional slave-raids on converted tribes have lead the Ottoman settlements to send complaints to Constantinople. Or other, more zealous Lizardmen decide to start an impromptu "People's Jihad" on the offending party and abandoning their work to try to burn down a plantation.

The Ottoman presence on mars is largely unofficial and civilian, with her trading companies, missionaries and embassies in the major Martian cities. The Ottoman portion of the Suez company has considered the possibility of expanding to the Red Planet; bringing in Earth technology and cheap African or Lizardfolk laborers to dredge out, repair and therefore "claim" some of the abandoned canal for themselves or a suitably usurpable city-state, and are looking to find the capital to do so. Thus far, though, the Canal Princes have proven very hesitant to allow Ottoman advisors into their ranks, the British and Americans having years before given enough examples of the dangers that posed.

[New Granadeseret]

Doing a role call to insure all those who previously expressed interest are still interested in this thread now that the OOC is up. Please post so I know who I can safely remove from the reserved nations list.

The Link to the OOC is here, and has now been added to the opening post.