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Stopping Chinese Expansion

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Tokora
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Stopping Chinese Expansion

Postby Tokora » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:19 am

A while ago, I made a thread asking how to stop the Chinese abuse of it's citizens and it's neighbors. The answer I mostly got was "They will stop when the people want to stop." which is a fair argument, but what of it's neighbors who aren't chinese?

The Chinese continue to take over the South China sea at the expense of Vietnam, the Philippines, and Indonesia. The Chinese do everything in their power (even at their own expense to subservient levels) to prop up and appease the rogue state of North Korea which not only enslaves it's own citizens for merely having the wrong blood, but also threatens nuclear attack on its neighbors South Korea and Japan. The majority of the Chinese people may approve of Jinping's policies, but their neighbors sure don't.

The worse part is that the American right, despite paying lip-service to our other allies, actively encourages China's behavior in secret because of their single-minded obsession with the Chinese market that they get in return for supporting China's ruling party (I refuse to call them Communist).

What can be done to help the nations in the region repel Chinese/ Korean aggression that won't require a regime change in Beijing that will never happen? The only thing I can think of is using extreme brinkmanship in the region but not even that would happen because the left (I support many of their policies but sometimes I question their judgement, this time included) thinks China can be negotiated with despite their constant refusal to respect international law and the right despite their sabre-rattling will never do anything to risk their lucrative trade agreements. Despite America's apathy, is there any way China can be pushed back and North Korea isolated?

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Dooom35796821595
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:22 am

Build up their fleets and make a deal with another country to provide a nuclear umbrella.
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Alekseandrea
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Postby Alekseandrea » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:12 am

Tokora wrote:The Chinese do everything in their power (even at their own expense to subservient levels) to prop up and appease the rogue state of North Korea which not only enslaves it's own citizens for merely having the wrong blood, but also threatens nuclear attack on its neighbors South Korea and Japan.


Well, not exactly.
The Chinese need to work with North Korea because they are allies.
It would be really bad PR to ignore them or de-ally them.

If North Korea did anything more proactive than threatening people and mistreating their own populace China would probably let then rot.

Realpolitik and all that.

The worse part is that the American right, despite paying lip-service to our other allies, actively encourages China's behavior in secret because of their single-minded obsession with the Chinese market that they get in return for supporting China's ruling party


What do you want them to do?
North Korea is doing a better job destroying itself than America ever could.
(Sorry I missunderstood that part a bit.)

They would gain little from it.
The moral high ground doesn't justify wasting loads of recourses on futile actions.

(I refuse to call them Communist).


But they are the communist party, are they not?

What can be done to help the nations in the region repel Chinese/ Korean aggression that won't require a regime change in Beijing that will never happen? The only thing I can think of is using extreme brinkmanship in the region but not even that would happen because the left (I support many of their policies but sometimes I question their judgement, this time included) thinks China can be negotiated with despite their constant refusal to respect international law and the right despite their sabre-rattling will never do anything to risk their lucrative trade agreements.


Well, it would seem that doing nothing would be the optimal solution.
If North Korea did anything worse than bark, even China would stop tolerating them.

Despite America's apathy, is there any way China can be pushed back and North Korea isolated?


North Korea is already isolated.
As for pushing China back, well, I'm afraid that they are very likely to become or perhaps, dare I say it, already are the dominant world power. I doubt that any nation would want to anger them.
It would be unwise.
Last edited by Alekseandrea on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TURTLESHROOM II
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Postby TURTLESHROOM II » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:15 am

Tokora wrote:Despite America's apathy, is there any way China can be pushed back and North Korea isolated?


There is only one way to end the Chinese menace, but it would be extremely painful. If we embargo their cheap crap, they will collapse immediately, because their economy is primarily export-driven.

The problem is obvious: pretty much no more cheap crap. If you think China is that big a threat, are you willing to sacrifice everything of value to pay out the nose for everything?
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The United Providences of Perland
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Postby The United Providences of Perland » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:34 am

The larger they are, the harder they fall. From the data I've seen, they're economy is plunging into the metaphorical shitter. Now, expanding takes money, and money to maintain once it's done. I expect China will break down before another nation has to step in and block them.
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Postby Vermont of America » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:33 pm

Trump be like "china, you take over dah sea and is exploiting our workers"
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Just because negotiating with China doesn't turn everything to sunshine and rainbows does not mean it isn't effective to avoid having a major war. Brinksmanship is stupid and dangerous.

The Chinese government was better under Hu Jintao, and we don't know what the next administration will be like when Xi is gone. Keeping the peace and waiting to see where things go is a perfectly viable strategy. It really disturbs me the way so many Americans freak out about China and make them out to be more of an immediate threat than they really are.
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NeoOasis
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Ex-Nation

Postby NeoOasis » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:02 pm

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:
Tokora wrote:Despite America's apathy, is there any way China can be pushed back and North Korea isolated?


There is only one way to end the Chinese menace, but it would be extremely painful. If we embargo their cheap crap, they will collapse immediately, because their economy is primarily export-driven.

The problem is obvious: pretty much no more cheap crap. If you think China is that big a threat, are you willing to sacrifice everything of value to pay out the nose for everything?


Not really. I doubt the rest of the world will follow the US as China's exports are too massive to ignore. Imagine if China suddenly stopped exporting steel. It would cause massive damage to all industry that uses steel to function. Then of course there would be all embargoed electronics which would not help US industry. Also let's remember the US also has a fairly robust export industry which does include food to Asia... imagine the damage if China returned the favor and placed an embargo on US sourced goods.

China can always go elsewhere. They are far more flexible right now than Trump is on trade. The US stands to lose more.
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Cetacea
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cetacea » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:04 pm

Trumps isolationism has all but guaranteed that Chinese influence will continue to expand not only south east but also westward.

The only thing you can hope for now is that China cares more about wealth than domination and that maybe more wealth will mean more liberalism and eventual democratisation.

The only other option is war - either civil rebellion or external aggression - both of those are bad for everyone

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Bordurian Islands
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Postby Bordurian Islands » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:14 pm

Even if China is allied to North Korea, I doubt they would declare war on the U.S. if we attacked them. North Korea's closed market will eventually bring it down from the inside.

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Bordurian Islands
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Postby Bordurian Islands » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:19 pm

North Korea's closed economy will bring itself down from the inside. If the US attacked, it would not be worth it for China to fight for a country that is spiraling down the drain.

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Postby NERVUN » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:22 pm

It is doubtful that China will be able to maintain the expansionism for too long. It's currently sitting on a demographic time bomb.
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Kennlind
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Postby Kennlind » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:25 pm

Chinese expansion is not an issue. American Imperialism is. How about we focus on stopping the imperialist capitalist aggressor that violates the sovereignty of more countries than you could count? Terrorist America is invading Syria right now and nobody cares. Everybody cares when Russia moves in to protect oppressed minorities in Ukraine, and when China makes strategic moves to become stronger and provide a better future for her people.
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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:27 pm

Three ways that I see.

An alliance of Pacific nations against China, not necessarily military, would help equalify power in the region

Change in Chinese foreign policy

Or Chinese collapse from overstretching.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:43 pm

Kennlind wrote:Chinese expansion is not an issue. American Imperialism is. How about we focus on stopping the imperialist capitalist aggressor that violates the sovereignty of more countries than you could count? Terrorist America is invading Syria right now and nobody cares. Everybody cares when Russia moves in to protect oppressed minorities in Ukraine, and when China makes strategic moves to become stronger and provide a better future for her people.


Cut the double standards, dude. China isn't nasty enough to be worth picking a fight with, but they are pushy and obnoxious in regional politics. "Strategic moves to become stronger and provide a better future for her people" is basically a nicer way of saying "imperialism."

Sure, the US does similar crap, but there can be more than one country being an asshole on the international stage at the same time.
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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:48 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Kennlind wrote:Chinese expansion is not an issue. American Imperialism is. How about we focus on stopping the imperialist capitalist aggressor that violates the sovereignty of more countries than you could count? Terrorist America is invading Syria right now and nobody cares. Everybody cares when Russia moves in to protect oppressed minorities in Ukraine, and when China makes strategic moves to become stronger and provide a better future for her people.


Cut the double standards, dude. China isn't nasty enough to be worth picking a fight with, but they are pushy and obnoxious in regional politics. "Strategic moves to become stronger and provide a better future for her people" is basically a nicer way of saying "imperialism."

Sure, the US does similar crap, but there can be more than one country being an asshole on the international stage at the same time.

Nah man, think of all the oppressed minorities in Ukraine if it wasn't for Russia invading sending volunteers.
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:00 pm

Seems China is trying to win over some of there regional neighbors

Still, Chinese Ambassador Zhao Jianhua admits that China’s investments to the Philippines may not be considered satisfactory. He acknowledged that the Philippines has more investments in China than China has in the Philippines


Which means the door is open for the Philippines to receive much more investments from China.

From last year -
The $24-billion investment and credit line pledges that the Philippine government secured from China earlier this week were a display of “greater confidence” in the future economic relationship of the two countries, according to Trade Secretary Ramon Lopez.


This year -
MANILA, Philippines - Chinese investors have began lining up to invest in the country, with new projects worth at least $10 billion expected to be infused amid improved economic ties between the Philippines and China.


When it comes to Chinese investments in other neighboring nations -
Chinese investments in other ASEAN countries like Vietnam, which has already received over $18 billion


Found this informative article on Chinese investments in SE Asia from December 2016. - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-to-power
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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:02 pm

North Korea provides cheap labor to China. They also provide cheap labor to Russia and Iran and a number of other nations. They are not going anywhere. China and Russia sell them lots of arms which they then turn around and provide cheap labor to pay for it. They also fuel a huge black market for every kind of illegal good which keeps their economy going at a minimum.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Is it a bad thing though?

East Asia needs firm leadership. Under the Chinese, East Asia could become more powerful than any other region in the world.

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:00 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Is it a bad thing though?

East Asia needs firm leadership. Under the Chinese, East Asia could become more powerful than any other region in the world.

I'd rather a country that actually gives a crap abut human rights be at the forefront of east Asia.

So that's about the majority of the countries in the area disqualified.
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No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
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Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:04 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Is it a bad thing though?

East Asia needs firm leadership. Under the Chinese, East Asia could become more powerful than any other region in the world.


China most likely would like to turn the Pacific into a Chinese lake if possible. After all, its not just East Asia (Western Pacific region) they are investing heavily. They are also investing in the Americas (Eastern Pacific region) while the US wants to wall itself off from most of the Americas and is pouring money into Ukraine and Afghanistan.

Read this on the Chinese in Peru - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2 ... 087254.htm

US starts talking about a wall and this is what a Mexican businessman later said -
"It is not viable that we continue to have a trade and economic relationship linked to a single country such as the United States, where 85% of our exports end up," he says.


Read this on the Chinese in Mexico - http://www.mexiconewsnetwork.com/news/c ... ng-mexico/

Read this on the Chinese in Argentina. This article really shows how the Chinese have managed to expand economically into other nations - http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/24/chi ... nt-refuse/
Last edited by Rio Cana on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Feari Teikoku
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Postby Feari Teikoku » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:12 pm

If you look at Asia's history - for virtually all of its time China has always been the dominant power in the region. From the Xia and the Shang to the Ming and the Qing China was the dominant power in East Asia. In fact the years of the People's Republic of China were the exception not the rule when it lost its power in the region.

If you will look at history, it's more of a "back to normal" time to China, a throwback to its tributary system across all of East and Southeast Asia.

And then wait more decades and a century more bet your money on these, China will break again into separate states like it always does.

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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:17 pm

Sovaal wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Is it a bad thing though?

East Asia needs firm leadership. Under the Chinese, East Asia could become more powerful than any other region in the world.

I'd rather a country that actually gives a crap abut human rights be at the forefront of east Asia.

So that's about the majority of the countries in the area disqualified.

That does not seem particularly likely, considering that any country in East Asia that can remotely be considered a human rights haven tend to be, for a lack of better words, isolationist, as in they do not seek to expand their influence outside their immediately neighbour at best, and their own border at worst. In fact, it seems that about the only constant in East Asia is the tendency to keep things to themselves, which seems to be helped by the modern Westphalian concept of national sovereignty.

Feari Teikoku wrote:If you look at Asia's history - for virtually all of its time China has always been the dominant power in the region. From the Xia and the Shang to the Ming and the Qing China was the dominant power in East Asia. In fact the years of the People's Republic of China were the exception not the rule when it lost its power in the region.

If you will look at history, it's more of a "back to normal" time to China, a throwback to its tributary system across all of East and Southeast Asia.

And then wait more decades and a century more bet your money on these, China will break again into separate states like it always does.


It would be quite a stretch to call any dynasty before Tang to be a dominant power in East Asia as a whole, with the possible exception of Han.
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Feari Teikoku
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Postby Feari Teikoku » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:20 pm

Tuthina wrote:
It would be quite a stretch to call any dynasty before Tang to be a dominant power in East Asia as a whole, with the possible exception of Han.


Well, Xia is ahistorical but the Shang was the first historical politically centralized state in East Asia.

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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:23 pm

Feari Teikoku wrote:
Tuthina wrote:
It would be quite a stretch to call any dynasty before Tang to be a dominant power in East Asia as a whole, with the possible exception of Han.


Well, Xia is ahistorical but the Shang was the first historical politically centralized state in East Asia.

Which is different from being the dominant power in East Asia as a whole. In what we now call northern China, perhaps, but far from the entire half of the continent.
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