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Leftists: Muslims Brotherhood or the National Front?

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Bakery Hill
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Leftists: Muslims Brotherhood or the National Front?

Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 5:53 pm

I recently finished reading the French novel Submission by Michel Houellebecq, and found the turning point of that novel quite interesting. In the 2022 French Presidential election, the Muslim Brotherhood lead by a charismatic moderate Islamist Mohammed Ben Abbes edges just in front of Manuel Valls of the Socialist Party into second place. Marine Le Pen's National Front gains first place. The second round runoff is now between a moderate Islamist party and a moderate nativist party, and after exhaustive negotiations the centre left and centre right fall in behind the Brotherhood in a "republican coalition" against Le Pen's National Front.

The Muslim Brotherhood are moderate Islamists who want to see a return to patriarchal values and spirituality. They don't want to convert or kill the inifdels and they don't want them to pay jizya. They hold Salafists in contempt. They're strong on law and order and seem able to stop both common crime and terrorism given their social power in the "ghettos". They also have grand plans for a reorientation and rejuvenation of Europe and their Gulf sponsors will bring in billions in investments. They see a society built around family and social welfare in line with zakat. They do however want a degree of Islamisation. Halal food everywhere, smoking restricted, alcohol heavily restricted, Islamic values in schools and even state funded Muslim education. They also want to reassert patriarchal gender roles. Women would be barred from certain professions, and certain degrees in university. Polygamy would be legalised and encouraged, immodest dress would be restricted and men would have more rights in the home and marriage legalised for girls as young as fifteen.

The National Front are far right nativists who want to see a return to cultural if not ethnic nationalism, in this election they draw heavily on the nationalist-secularist legacy of the French revolution, draping themselves in the tricolour. They don't want to send people to death camps, they probably won't send all the Muslims home. They too are strong on law and order and will probably seek to ramp up the police state and the military to crack down on internal enemies such as the MB, expect heavily patrolled "ghettos" and mass incarcerations. Borders will be heavily policed, non-citizens will be rounded up and forced out of the country. They want to leave Europe and re-establish France as a fully sovereign state in its own right, isolated to a degree from what they see as a dying Europe. They are traditionalist on social values, but nowhere near the extent MB is. They want a very much secular society that will probably crack down on external displays of Christianity as well as Islam in the interest of seeming even handed. They want a de-Islamisation of society. Accommodations to Muslims like Halal food in schools, prayer rooms etc. will likely be banned. On the issue of women's rights the National Front will not be feminists, but they will be nowhere near as patriarchal as the MB, they have a female leader after all. Expect no great changes here.

...

My question? Who would you vote for in the second round? For rightists the choice may seem simple. Many of you already support the National Front or its equivalent party in your own country. For others, the shift, given the circumstances, would be easy. But for ultra reactionaries, a few of you apparently existing on NSG, surely MB policies wouldn't be the worst thing in the world? Of course it's not your team doing it, but you seem to have a lot of common ground.

But my question is more aimed at leftists, who despise groups like the National Front but are also typically very secular minded. If you had a gun to your head, if you could not spoil your vote or abstain, which would be the natural first choice for most of us, what would you do? Which devil would you choose? Gun to my head, I would pick the National Front myself.
Last edited by Bakery Hill on Fri May 19, 2017 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Audioslavia » Fri May 19, 2017 6:04 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:if you could not spoil your vote or abstain,...


Well there goes my gut instinct. Seeing by Jose Saramago is a very good book about about blank votes, if you can find it.

In this circumstance I'd opt for the National Front, if only to stop the French from rioting in the streets when their morning Gauloise is banned.

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Postby Athrax » Fri May 19, 2017 6:06 pm

Gun to my head? Pull the trigger. I don't see a difference. They're slightly different versions of awful conservativism, and neither will have my support. I suppose the NF is slightly more in line with what I consider important than the Muslim Brotherhood, but I could never find myself supporting either group in any instance.

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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:07 pm

Audioslavia wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:if you could not spoil your vote or abstain,...


Well there goes my gut instinct. Seeing by Jose Saramago is a very good book about about blank votes, if you can find it.

Thank you for the recommendation, it looks interesting.

In this circumstance I'd opt for the National Front, if only to stop the French from rioting in the streets when their morning Gauloise is banned.

Mais oui, le tabac est tres important pour la societe.
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Postby Shofercia » Fri May 19, 2017 6:07 pm

This is certainly an interesting choice. On the one hand, it's tough to see women demoted; on the other, it's tough to see racial minorities demoted. I'll be watching this thread - good OP!
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Postby Pope Joan » Fri May 19, 2017 6:08 pm

We have been spoonfed a typical MSM line that demonizes the Muslim Brotherhood.

They were deomcratically elected in an internationally supervised election.

Then the US led a junta to overthrow them, and then jail them on charges that would have been more appropriately made against the junta itself.
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri May 19, 2017 6:08 pm

I'm not going to vote for the religious based party especially one that is not my own. So FN it is
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Athrax wrote:Gun to my head? Pull the trigger. I don't see a difference. They're slightly different versions of awful conservativism, and neither will have my support. I suppose the NF is slightly more in line with what I consider important than the Muslim Brotherhood, but I could never find myself supporting either group in any instance.

Both awful? I would vehemently agree. But I would say that the MB's conservatism is very different to the NF's.
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:09 pm

Shofercia wrote:This is certainly an interesting choice. On the one hand, it's tough to see women demoted; on the other, it's tough to see racial minorities demoted. I'll be watching this thread - good OP!

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Athrax
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Postby Athrax » Fri May 19, 2017 6:10 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Athrax wrote:Gun to my head? Pull the trigger. I don't see a difference. They're slightly different versions of awful conservativism, and neither will have my support. I suppose the NF is slightly more in line with what I consider important than the Muslim Brotherhood, but I could never find myself supporting either group in any instance.

Both awful? I would vehemently agree. But I would say that the MB's conservatism is very different to the NF's.

Both are trying to promote their own culture to a very aggressive degree. The NF's conservativism favors the more local culture, while the MB's favors a foreign one. But both are equally loathsome to a multiculturalist like myself.

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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:11 pm

Pope Joan wrote:We have been spoonfed a typical MSM line that demonizes the Muslim Brotherhood.

They were deomcratically elected in an internationally supervised election.

Then the US led a junta to overthrow them, and then jail them on charges that would have been more appropriately made against the junta itself.

These are very interesting and complicated issues, but we are not exactly talking about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt here. More a hypothetical French affiliate operating with its own ideas in a different social context.
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Postby Chessmistress » Fri May 19, 2017 6:12 pm

A ban on cigarettes by the Muslim Brotherhood within Submission by Michel Houellebecq???
I did read it, and I'm pretty sure that there isn't such thing...

Answering to your question: as Feminist in this case I would side with relatively moderate tradcons, against extreme patriarchy.
Without doubts and without remorses.
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:12 pm

Athrax wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:Both awful? I would vehemently agree. But I would say that the MB's conservatism is very different to the NF's.

Both are trying to promote their own culture to a very aggressive degree. The NF's conservativism favors the more local culture, while the MB's favors a foreign one. But both are equally loathsome to a multiculturalist like myself.

If you are a woman, or at least an independent minded woman, wouldn't the choice between these "conservatisms" be far easier?
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Postby Proctopeo » Fri May 19, 2017 6:13 pm

National Front for certain, now with two reasons instead of one.
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Postby Neo Balka » Fri May 19, 2017 6:13 pm

Athrax wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:Both awful? I would vehemently agree. But I would say that the MB's conservatism is very different to the NF's.

Both are trying to promote their own culture to a very aggressive degree. The NF's conservativism favors the more local culture, while the MB's favors a foreign one. But both are equally loathsome to a multiculturalist like myself.


So youre a multiculturalist but wouldnt vote for muslims?

raaaacist.
The mere fact that i pissed someone off either means i stood for something or i said something offensive.
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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:14 pm

Chessmistress wrote:A ban on cigarettes by the Muslim Brotherhood within Submission by Michel Houellebecq???
I did read it, and I'm pretty sure that there isn't such thing...

Answering to your question: as Feminist in this case I would side with relatively moderate tradcons, against extreme patriarchy.
Without doubts and without remorses.

It is hinted it rather than said outright. When the TGV breaks down, guards fan out to stop passengers from taking a smoke outside. I interpreted that as something like a public smoking ban at the very least, though I might have jumped the gun there.
Last edited by Bakery Hill on Fri May 19, 2017 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Athrax
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Postby Athrax » Fri May 19, 2017 6:15 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Athrax wrote:Both are trying to promote their own culture to a very aggressive degree. The NF's conservativism favors the more local culture, while the MB's favors a foreign one. But both are equally loathsome to a multiculturalist like myself.

If you are a woman, or at least an independent minded woman, wouldn't the choice between these "conservatisms" be far easier?


I'm a gay atheist, so the less religiously minded version would be more beneficial to me personally. That being said, I also dislike the idea of throwing ethnic minorities under the bus to save myself.

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Postby Threlizdun » Fri May 19, 2017 6:15 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:We have been spoonfed a typical MSM line that demonizes the Muslim Brotherhood.

They were deomcratically elected in an internationally supervised election.

Then the US led a junta to overthrow them, and then jail them on charges that would have been more appropriately made against the junta itself.

These are very interesting and complicated issues, but we are not exactly talking about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt here. More a hypothetical French affiliate operating with its own ideas in a different social context.

And that's all it is. Hypothetical. The events that would have to transpire to make this election result even remotely possible are so outlandish that we can't even begin to imagine what the backdrop of this election would actually look like. We may as well be discussing the election between the National Front and a hypothetical resurgence in French Monarchists. Both are equally implausible in the current political climate and any expected political climate of the near future.
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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:16 pm

Threlizdun wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:These are very interesting and complicated issues, but we are not exactly talking about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt here. More a hypothetical French affiliate operating with its own ideas in a different social context.

And that's all it is. Hypothetical. The events that would have to transpire to make this election result even remotely possible are so outlandish that we can't even begin to imagine what the backdrop of this election would actually look like. We may as well be discussing the election between the National Front and a hypothetical resurgence in French Monarchists. Both are equally implausible in the current political climate and any expected political climate of the near future.

Perhaps you could start your own thread about that? I would certainly love to comment.
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Athrax
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Postby Athrax » Fri May 19, 2017 6:17 pm

Threlizdun wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:These are very interesting and complicated issues, but we are not exactly talking about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt here. More a hypothetical French affiliate operating with its own ideas in a different social context.

And that's all it is. Hypothetical. The events that would have to transpire to make this election result even remotely possible are so outlandish that we can't even begin to imagine what the backdrop of this election would actually look like. We may as well be discussing the election between the National Front and a hypothetical resurgence in French Monarchists. Both are equally implausible in the current political climate and any expected political climate of the near future.


Legitimist, Orleanist, or Bonapartist?

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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:17 pm

Athrax wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:If you are a woman, or at least an independent minded woman, wouldn't the choice between these "conservatisms" be far easier?


I'm a gay atheist, so the less religiously minded version would be more beneficial to me personally. That being said, I also dislike the idea of throwing ethnic minorities under the bus to save myself.

I'd dislike that as well.
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Postby Chessmistress » Fri May 19, 2017 6:19 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:A ban on cigarettes by the Muslim Brotherhood within Submission by Michel Houellebecq???
I did read it, and I'm pretty sure that there isn't such thing...

Answering to your question: as Feminist in this case I would side with relatively moderate tradcons, against extreme patriarchy.
Without doubts and without remorses.

It is hinted it rather than said outright. When the TGV breaks down, guards fan out to stop passengers from taking a smoke outside. I interpreted that as something like a public smoking ban at the very least, though I might have jumped the gun there.


It's meant to describe a police state with absurd restrictions, not a ban on cigarettes.
In the book the richer muslims even drink expensive wine, that would be prohibited by their religion, so I strongly doubt that they would give up to cigarettes since cigarettes aren't prohibited in Islam.
OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri May 19, 2017 6:19 pm

Proctopeo wrote:National Front for certain, now with two reasons instead of one.

And what are those two reasons?
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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Fri May 19, 2017 6:19 pm

Athrax wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:And that's all it is. Hypothetical. The events that would have to transpire to make this election result even remotely possible are so outlandish that we can't even begin to imagine what the backdrop of this election would actually look like. We may as well be discussing the election between the National Front and a hypothetical resurgence in French Monarchists. Both are equally implausible in the current political climate and any expected political climate of the near future.


Legitimist, Orleanist, or Bonapartist?

I would vote Bonapartiste, because they'd fuck it up and we'd have another commune.
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Postby Proctopeo » Fri May 19, 2017 6:19 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:National Front for certain, now with two reasons instead of one.

And what are those two reasons?

They're eurosceptic and they're not the religious party. The latter is new.
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