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MCU Discussion Thread

A coffee shop for those who like to discuss art, music, books, movies, TV, each other's own works, and existential angst.

Should we include X-Men and other non MCU topics in this thread?

Yes, all Marvel films should be discussed here
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55%
No, keep this discussion MCU exclusive
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Total votes : 69

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The Rebel Alliances
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MCU Discussion Thread

Postby The Rebel Alliances » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:09 pm

Image

With 14 films released, several television series, one shot short films and tie-in comics the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or MCU is perhaps the most ambitious shared television universe to ever be created and is still far from over. Beginning with Iron Man in 2008 and looking forward to Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2, the films alone are worth $10 Billion and the universe gets ever more immersive with each new film and tv series.

This is a thread to discuss everything MCU related. Favorite movies, favorite character, which character you hope gets a movie or which tv series is the best. You get the idea.

I suppose it is only proper for me to start off first.

It's hard for me to pick a favorite movie, but I can say the Cap America Trilogy is my favorite line of MCU movies in the bunch. Other standouts for me are Thor, Iron Man, both Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. Ant-Man actually really surprised me as well. I was actually not impressed with the Iron Man sequels though.

Also, recently re-watched The Incredible Hulk and think it is pretty underrated.
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Postby Ascoobis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:21 pm

The Rebel Alliances wrote:(Image)

With 14 films released, several television series, one shot short films and tie-in comics the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or MCU is perhaps the most ambitious shared television universe to ever be created and is still far from over. Beginning with Iron Man in 2008 and looking forward to Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2, the films alone are worth $10 Billion and the universe gets ever more immersive with each new film and tv series.

This is a thread to discuss everything MCU related. Favorite movies, favorite character, which character you hope gets a movie or which tv series is the best. You get the idea.

I suppose it is only proper for me to start off first.

It's hard for me to pick a favorite movie, but I can say the Cap America Trilogy is my favorite line of MCU movies in the bunch. Other standouts for me are Thor, Iron Man, both Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. Ant-Man actually really surprised me as well. I was actually not impressed with the Iron Man sequels though.

Also, recently re-watched The Incredible Hulk and think it is pretty underrated.

I hope that villains get their chance to shine soon and seem more relateable. Since Loki as the main antagonist in Avengers, villains since have really lacked that kind of charm. Either it's that or it's infighting amongst the heroes(Which is interesting in its own right.)

Hopefully in the future, the more reasonable villains will realize that they will have to form their own teams to combat the Avengers/Guardians of the Galaxy/The Defenders/S.H.I.E.L.D./etc.

Last and not least, I'm looking forward to Spider-man: Homecoming and hope that an incarnation of Venom appears at sometime in this story of the MCU.
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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:24 pm

Honestly even at this point I have the opinion that villains is one of the DCEU's biggest advantages over MCU. Most MCU movies simply use villains as an opposition force for the hero, the films are usually hero-centric. Nothing wrong with that but I completely agree, I would say Loki is the last time I really felt anything for a villain in a Marvel film. Unless you count Magneto in the X-Men movies, but sadly those are not MCU.
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:02 am

The Rebel Alliances wrote:Honestly even at this point I have the opinion that villains is one of the DCEU's biggest advantages over MCU. Most MCU movies simply use villains as an opposition force for the hero, the films are usually hero-centric. Nothing wrong with that but I completely agree, I would say Loki is the last time I really felt anything for a villain in a Marvel film. Unless you count Magneto in the X-Men movies, but sadly those are not MCU.

I'd agree with this. Zod and Luthor weren't brilliant villains, and they fell short of Loki, Fisk, Kilgrave, and perhaps Zemo, but they're significantly better than the very flat villains of most the MCU films.

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Postby New haven america » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:15 am

Can we also agree that the MCU needs to learn how to better place it's comedic and dramatic moments?

It's starting to get really grating having a dramatic or sad moment happen, then have it interrupted or ruined with some random comedic quip or comment.
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:39 am

New haven america wrote:Can we also agree that the MCU needs to learn how to better place it's comedic and dramatic moments?

It's starting to get really grating having a dramatic or sad moment happen, then have it interrupted or ruined with some random comedic quip or comment.

I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?

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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:25 am

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:
The Rebel Alliances wrote:Honestly even at this point I have the opinion that villains is one of the DCEU's biggest advantages over MCU. Most MCU movies simply use villains as an opposition force for the hero, the films are usually hero-centric. Nothing wrong with that but I completely agree, I would say Loki is the last time I really felt anything for a villain in a Marvel film. Unless you count Magneto in the X-Men movies, but sadly those are not MCU.

I'd agree with this. Zod and Luthor weren't brilliant villains, and they fell short of Loki, Fisk, Kilgrave, and perhaps Zemo, but they're significantly better than the very flat villains of most the MCU films.


I really enjoyed Zod, I felt that he was a rather relatable villain especially to start the DCEU with, but more of that when I start the DCEU discussion thread. Unless someone else wants to. But Loki is a phenomenal villain. And even Ultron had his moment, but aside from that it's rare.

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:
New haven america wrote:Can we also agree that the MCU needs to learn how to better place it's comedic and dramatic moments?

It's starting to get really grating having a dramatic or sad moment happen, then have it interrupted or ruined with some random comedic quip or comment.

I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?


Honestly I feel as if many MCU films border on action comedy. Possibly more comedy. I think it's why The Incredible Hulk gets passed over because of it's more serious tone it doesn't feel as 'fun' as movies like Iron Man and Thor.
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Postby Ascoobis » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:43 am

The Rebel Alliances wrote:
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I'd agree with this. Zod and Luthor weren't brilliant villains, and they fell short of Loki, Fisk, Kilgrave, and perhaps Zemo, but they're significantly better than the very flat villains of most the MCU films.


I really enjoyed Zod, I felt that he was a rather relatable villain especially to start the DCEU with, but more of that when I start the DCEU discussion thread. Unless someone else wants to. But Loki is a phenomenal villain. And even Ultron had his moment, but aside from that it's rare.

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?


Honestly I feel as if many MCU films border on action comedy. Possibly more comedy. I think it's why The Incredible Hulk gets passed over because of it's more serious tone it doesn't feel as 'fun' as movies like Iron Man and Thor.

Yeah. I was wondering why they only made one Hulk film....
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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:55 am

Ascoobis wrote:
The Rebel Alliances wrote:
I really enjoyed Zod, I felt that he was a rather relatable villain especially to start the DCEU with, but more of that when I start the DCEU discussion thread. Unless someone else wants to. But Loki is a phenomenal villain. And even Ultron had his moment, but aside from that it's rare.



Honestly I feel as if many MCU films border on action comedy. Possibly more comedy. I think it's why The Incredible Hulk gets passed over because of it's more serious tone it doesn't feel as 'fun' as movies like Iron Man and Thor.

Yeah. I was wondering why they only made one Hulk film....


If I had to guess, it could be because the film barely broke even in the box office. It had a budget up of $100 million and just broke $200 in theaters.
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:04 am

The Rebel Alliances wrote:
Ascoobis wrote:Yeah. I was wondering why they only made one Hulk film....


If I had to guess, it could be because the film barely broke even in the box office. It had a budget up of $100 million and just broke $200 in theaters.

Given that they now have a different actor playing Banner and the MCU is well-established, I imagine any Hulk sequel would do as well as all the other MCU films do these days, so it's a bit strange that they haven't tried again.

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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:22 am

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:
The Rebel Alliances wrote:
If I had to guess, it could be because the film barely broke even in the box office. It had a budget up of $100 million and just broke $200 in theaters.

Given that they now have a different actor playing Banner and the MCU is well-established, I imagine any Hulk sequel would do as well as all the other MCU films do these days, so it's a bit strange that they haven't tried again.


I don't see a Hulk movie in the works and am fairly certain it won't happen. Edward I don't think was the problem with the first Hulk film. It's serious nature and darker tone just didn't mesh well with what audiences expected. And the film didn't really make a profit for the studio. The character is well received in the Avengers films so I think they have decided to just bring the character in on ensemble casts.

It's disappointing to be sure as every other major Avenger has a trilogy of films. Iron Man, Captain America and Thor gets his 3rd soon.

Disclaimer: Thats just my opinion and speculation, maybe they will surprise us.
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Postby New haven america » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:22 pm

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:
New haven america wrote:Can we also agree that the MCU needs to learn how to better place it's comedic and dramatic moments?

It's starting to get really grating having a dramatic or sad moment happen, then have it interrupted or ruined with some random comedic quip or comment.

I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?

Dr. Strange.
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:37 pm

New haven america wrote:
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?

Dr. Strange.

Can you be a little more specific? I can think of a couple of sad moments in that film, but if there were jokes accompanying them, they weren't jarring enough for me to remember them.

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Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:10 pm

The Rebel Alliances wrote:
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I'd agree with this. Zod and Luthor weren't brilliant villains, and they fell short of Loki, Fisk, Kilgrave, and perhaps Zemo, but they're significantly better than the very flat villains of most the MCU films.


I really enjoyed Zod, I felt that he was a rather relatable villain especially to start the DCEU with, but more of that when I start the DCEU discussion thread. Unless someone else wants to. But Loki is a phenomenal villain. And even Ultron had his moment, but aside from that it's rare.

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?


Honestly I feel as if many MCU films border on action comedy. Possibly more comedy. I think it's why The Incredible Hulk gets passed over because of it's more serious tone it doesn't feel as 'fun' as movies like Iron Man and Thor.


Incredible Hulk wasn't passed because of that reason, but it has plenty of other reasons, like the fact that Universal still owns the rights to distribute the movies of Hulk-based where Hulk is the main actor. It is still not solved yet, so it is quite impossible until it is solved for Hulk to acts on his own movie with Universal retaining any distribution rights on Hulk solo movies only but not on movies where Hulk is part of the movie.

In April 2015, Ruffalo said Universal holding the distribution rights to Hulk films may be an obstacle to releasing a future Hulk standalone film,[124] and reiterated this in October.[125] Marvel reacquired the film rights for the character, but Universal retained the distribution rights for The Incredible Hulk as well as the right of first refusal to distribute future Hulk films.[126] According to The Hollywood Reporter, a potential reason why Marvel has not reacquired the film distribution rights to the Hulk as they did with Paramount Pictures for the Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America films is because Universal holds the theme park rights to several Marvel characters that Marvel's parent company Disney wants for its own theme parks.


According to Wikipedia (the quote of above, it has link sources as well). Basically, Universal has the rights for the solo movie, and right of first refusal. Also theme parks rights. And since the strained relationship between Disney/Marvel and Universal is a thing, it is quite an obstacle.

Also on box office. You may have notice that the box office results of Hulk movies so far where he is the main character is not as high as Thor, Captain America, Spider-Man, and Iron Man. Even if the solo movie right is with Marvel, they will be reluctant to put another movie in the series of Hulk where the possibility of high box office result is not guaranteed.
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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:41 pm

The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The Rebel Alliances wrote:
I really enjoyed Zod, I felt that he was a rather relatable villain especially to start the DCEU with, but more of that when I start the DCEU discussion thread. Unless someone else wants to. But Loki is a phenomenal villain. And even Ultron had his moment, but aside from that it's rare.



Honestly I feel as if many MCU films border on action comedy. Possibly more comedy. I think it's why The Incredible Hulk gets passed over because of it's more serious tone it doesn't feel as 'fun' as movies like Iron Man and Thor.


Incredible Hulk wasn't passed because of that reason, but it has plenty of other reasons, like the fact that Universal still owns the rights to distribute the movies of Hulk-based where Hulk is the main actor. It is still not solved yet, so it is quite impossible until it is solved for Hulk to acts on his own movie with Universal retaining any distribution rights on Hulk solo movies only but not on movies where Hulk is part of the movie.

In April 2015, Ruffalo said Universal holding the distribution rights to Hulk films may be an obstacle to releasing a future Hulk standalone film,[124] and reiterated this in October.[125] Marvel reacquired the film rights for the character, but Universal retained the distribution rights for The Incredible Hulk as well as the right of first refusal to distribute future Hulk films.[126] According to The Hollywood Reporter, a potential reason why Marvel has not reacquired the film distribution rights to the Hulk as they did with Paramount Pictures for the Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America films is because Universal holds the theme park rights to several Marvel characters that Marvel's parent company Disney wants for its own theme parks.


According to Wikipedia (the quote of above, it has link sources as well). Basically, Universal has the rights for the solo movie, and right of first refusal. Also theme parks rights. And since the strained relationship between Disney/Marvel and Universal is a thing, it is quite an obstacle.

Also on box office. You may have notice that the box office results of Hulk movies so far where he is the main character is not as high as Thor, Captain America, Spider-Man, and Iron Man. Even if the solo movie right is with Marvel, they will be reluctant to put another movie in the series of Hulk where the possibility of high box office result is not guaranteed.


This is why I am optimistic about the long term DCEU films. WB has access to all DC characters as far as I know while Marvel characters are thrown around various studios.

I do believe that I commented on the low Hulk box office returns, but the legal information is news to me. Damn, even worse than I thought.
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Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:04 pm

The Rebel Alliances wrote:
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
Incredible Hulk wasn't passed because of that reason, but it has plenty of other reasons, like the fact that Universal still owns the rights to distribute the movies of Hulk-based where Hulk is the main actor. It is still not solved yet, so it is quite impossible until it is solved for Hulk to acts on his own movie with Universal retaining any distribution rights on Hulk solo movies only but not on movies where Hulk is part of the movie.

In April 2015, Ruffalo said Universal holding the distribution rights to Hulk films may be an obstacle to releasing a future Hulk standalone film,[124] and reiterated this in October.[125] Marvel reacquired the film rights for the character, but Universal retained the distribution rights for The Incredible Hulk as well as the right of first refusal to distribute future Hulk films.[126] According to The Hollywood Reporter, a potential reason why Marvel has not reacquired the film distribution rights to the Hulk as they did with Paramount Pictures for the Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America films is because Universal holds the theme park rights to several Marvel characters that Marvel's parent company Disney wants for its own theme parks.


According to Wikipedia (the quote of above, it has link sources as well). Basically, Universal has the rights for the solo movie, and right of first refusal. Also theme parks rights. And since the strained relationship between Disney/Marvel and Universal is a thing, it is quite an obstacle.

Also on box office. You may have notice that the box office results of Hulk movies so far where he is the main character is not as high as Thor, Captain America, Spider-Man, and Iron Man. Even if the solo movie right is with Marvel, they will be reluctant to put another movie in the series of Hulk where the possibility of high box office result is not guaranteed.


This is why I am optimistic about the long term DCEU films. WB has access to all DC characters as far as I know while Marvel characters are thrown around various studios.

I do believe that I commented on the low Hulk box office returns, but the legal information is news to me. Damn, even worse than I thought.


I knew of the legal problems when I checked one of Looper's video (Looper is basically a channel of facts about something, of which Hulk is one of the things they covered)

Here's the link, you'll find more info. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQMtZL7y18U
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Postby Forsher » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:34 am

New haven america wrote:
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I think the interplay of comedy and drama is one of the MCU's strengths. I can't think of any sad moments that were interrupted by humour (hell, I struggle to think of more than a handful of sad moments in the entire MCU). Can you link some?

Dr. Strange.


Rewatch Die Hard. Interspersed drama and comedy is how action films are meant to be. Action comedy is comedy with an action plot. You may find action thriller more your speed.

As to villains... Zemo is better than Loki. Ultron is... well, let's just say I was disappointed with Age of Ultron (even the first Avengers is not so good on rewatch... and I really liked that the first time I saw it). Several villains haven't been the point. I'm honestly not fussed if REVENGE is the primary motivation.

With the Hulk... the point of the character, in some respects, is how the Hulk interacts with the other heroes. As the Hulk, agency is not so certain, whereas the other characters are in charge. An isolated Hulk film requires the plot to be driven by other characters (which may or may not include Banner) or would probably have to be more like Memento than is ideal for a concept like the Hulk (it would be a hard sell). And then there are the rights angles already discussed.

In general, the movies are the inferior product. However, I would watch the movies over Iron Fist (man, that soundtrack was awful)... it's difficult to say what the main issue there was... I guess it was just not as well done. Right now, and probably generally, I prefer SHIELD to everything... and then would probably rank them Luke Cage > Daredevil I > Jessica Jones > Various Movies & Agent Carter & Daredevil II > Various Other Movies > Iron Fist.

Unsurprisingly, I will suggest that the "shared" nature of the MCU applies mostly with the films and needs to be reappraised in light of firstly the artificial separation* of the films and television and secondly the barriers between SHIELD and Netflix (cameos or acknowledging that SHIELD exists would be cool).

*Actually, maybe this is less true than I thought but whatever, I am tired.
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Postby Space Pirate Ridley » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:43 am

At the moment I'm kinda ticked over the circle-jerking that Sony has been doing with the Venom movie they are supposed to be making...

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Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:31 am

Forsher wrote:
New haven america wrote:Dr. Strange.




Unsurprisingly, I will suggest that the "shared" nature of the MCU applies mostly with the films and needs to be reappraised in light of firstly the artificial separation* of the films and television and secondly the barriers between SHIELD and Netflix (cameos or acknowledging that SHIELD exists would be cool).

*Actually, maybe this is less true than I thought but whatever, I am tired.


Yes. MCU needs to establishes two different universes, since it is quite clear that they cannot use the TV materials effectively for the movies, despite the fact it serves to portrayed MCU's setting in a larger-scope in theory. They should be like DC, who established both Arrowverse and DCEU as two different universes and at the same time hinting the possibility of crossovers.

It's much easier and you are able to form a better reception to the fans.

Space Pirate Ridley wrote:At the moment I'm kinda ticked over the circle-jerking that Sony has been doing with the Venom movie they are supposed to be making...


Sony did mention that their new movie universe would be formed with Venom as their first movie with Black Cat and Silver Sable as their next potential movie ideas, but honestly they should just sell the rights back to Marvel. They already proved twice with Spider-Man that they unable to made it into a profitable franchise, with both Amazing Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3 proved to be their undoing. Their needs to introduced more than just one or two villains and cutting up some character developments were signs.
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Postby The Rebel Alliances » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:51 am

Honestly, Sony handling another Spiderman movie of any kind scares me a little. After Spiderman 3 especially. Although I certainly did enjoy Spiderman 1 and 2 as well as the Amazing Spiderman. That Gwen Stacy death hit me in my feels.

More than anything I want another crack at Green Goblin that can rival William Defoe.
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The Starlight wrote:Rebel Force: Noun - A strange power associated with street-level characters who are the weakest, yet most powerful of all.


Defender of the Sonic Franchise, DCEU, Ash Ketchem and Star Wars Prequels


2nd Place Winner of "Best Sci-Fi Role Player" 2014
2nd Place Winner of "The Novelist" Award for Best Writer 2014
2nd Place Winner of the Silver Award "The Best Overall Role Player" in 2014

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:44 am

I think that two of my favorites would have to be Age Of Ultron and Guardians of the Galaxy.
Dr. Strange, Avengers 1, and Civil War are up there as well.
In terms of Hulk stuff, I'm just hopeful they'll do something with the Leader foreshadowing Incredible Hulk had.

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The Rebel Alliances
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Founded: Jan 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rebel Alliances » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:06 am

Lord Dominator wrote:I think that two of my favorites would have to be Age Of Ultron and Guardians of the Galaxy.
Dr. Strange, Avengers 1, and Civil War are up there as well.
In terms of Hulk stuff, I'm just hopeful they'll do something with the Leader foreshadowing Incredible Hulk had.


I would love to see a film where Hulk fights Red Hulk.
My IC Nation Name is The Confederation of Sovereign States. It has no relation to the CSA. Factbook Thread is here-Factbook

The Starlight wrote:Rebel Force: Noun - A strange power associated with street-level characters who are the weakest, yet most powerful of all.


Defender of the Sonic Franchise, DCEU, Ash Ketchem and Star Wars Prequels


2nd Place Winner of "Best Sci-Fi Role Player" 2014
2nd Place Winner of "The Novelist" Award for Best Writer 2014
2nd Place Winner of the Silver Award "The Best Overall Role Player" in 2014

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:20 am

The Rebel Alliances wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I think that two of my favorites would have to be Age Of Ultron and Guardians of the Galaxy.
Dr. Strange, Avengers 1, and Civil War are up there as well.
In terms of Hulk stuff, I'm just hopeful they'll do something with the Leader foreshadowing Incredible Hulk had.


I would love to see a film where Hulk fights Red Hulk.

Heck, there could be a whole Avengers film with the Leader giving Ross powers to get revenge on the Hulk or whatever.
We get a Hulk film and with more Hulk villains without needing Universal.

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The Rebel Alliances
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Founded: Jan 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rebel Alliances » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:18 am

Does anyone think it's time for a new poll? Things are slowing down a bit here.
My IC Nation Name is The Confederation of Sovereign States. It has no relation to the CSA. Factbook Thread is here-Factbook

The Starlight wrote:Rebel Force: Noun - A strange power associated with street-level characters who are the weakest, yet most powerful of all.


Defender of the Sonic Franchise, DCEU, Ash Ketchem and Star Wars Prequels


2nd Place Winner of "Best Sci-Fi Role Player" 2014
2nd Place Winner of "The Novelist" Award for Best Writer 2014
2nd Place Winner of the Silver Award "The Best Overall Role Player" in 2014

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The Knockout Gun Gals
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Founded: Aug 06, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:13 am

The Rebel Alliances wrote:Does anyone think it's time for a new poll? Things are slowing down a bit here.


Yes.

Also, Fox just announced release dates for New Mutants, Deadpool 2, and officially titled X-Men : Dark Phoenix.
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
TriStates wrote:Covenant declare a crusade, and wage jihad against the UNSC and Insurrectionists for 30 years.

So Covenant declare a crusade and then wage jihad? :p

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