Battle of Berkeley II (Decisive Conservative Victory)

[Republic Of Varra]

As the dust settled over Berkeley the second time this year, it was clear who won the Second Battle of Berkeley. The Conservative/Moderate forces were able to defend and hold their own against Antifa bricks, explosions, and weaponry.

As opposed to the first battle, the Pro-Trump forces were in this case ready, as they had more in numbers, has some actual militia forces with them (still without weaponry for the most part) and even groups of bikers.

The protest began peacefully until the Antifa forces clad in black began harassing and attacking the Pro-Trump forces. In response, as opposed to the first battle, they actually fought back and defended themselves against the onslaught of Antifa.

By the end of the day, the Antifa had dispersed, giving way for their oppositions victory marches through downtown Berkeley.

Here are some videos to take into account some of the carnage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNNuc1Uleuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gooFwR9iAAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGhNCrI_k8A

Here are some videos from political commentators.

Sargon of Akkad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe4-7IgMbsg

Lauren Southern (Was there): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSMz0pcrM18&t=156s

Personal opinion: I am not a conservative myself, however I did personally watch the livestream and found myself sympathizing for the conservatives for wanting to protect themselves. This was going to happen at some point and the conservatives stood up for themselves in the face of violence, even when the police did not help protect them.

Nationstates, what is your opinion on these events in Berkeley? Will there be more? And will this eventually evolve into something on a much larger scale?

[Hirota]

I'm a left leaning type (but often critical of the left), but i don't think you can assign who "won" or "lost"

The truth is both displayed how far both betray their own values. The antifa are barely distinguishable from those they claim to hate, and free speech advocates resort to the same pointless violence. At least in the first "battle" the free speech advocates on the right demonstrated what a bunch of thugs the antifa are.

[Greed and Death]

I do not think AntiFa is used to people fighting back.

[Sanctissima]

I think the most important thing this debacle shows is that Berkeley really needs to get its shit together regarding security.

The police need to hamper down on this kind of stuff.

[Republic Of Varra]

I'm a left leaning type (but often critical of the left), but i don't think you can assign who "won" or "lost"

The truth is both displayed how far both betray their own values. The antifa are barely distinguishable from those they claim to hate, and free speech advocates resort to the same pointless violence. At least in the first "battle" the free speech advocates on the right demonstrated what a bunch of thugs the antifa are.

The Conservative side won because they were able to take the beating from the Antifa and disperse them, letting them continue their demonstration. Clear victory against the far left terrorist group.

The free speech advocates defended themselves by being pepper sprayed, pelted with bricks, rocks, bats, etc. while the police remained on stand by. That isn't betraying their values. That's standing up to thugs and practicing self defense.

[Vassenor]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

[Republic Of Varra]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

You obviously missed the entire point of my argument. Being that, defense against leftist violence is a good thing. Not "violence against left people is good". I am a centrist myself and would not promote violence against anyone unless they were in self defense. Which, in this case, the conservatives were. As such, they were in the right.

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

Again, look above, because that isn't what I am saying at all, and trying to twist my words into something you feel comfortable with mocking is not a good argument to make.

[Vassenor]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

You obviously missed the entire point of my argument. Being that, defense against leftist violence is a good thing. Not "violence against left people is good". I am a centrist myself and would not promote violence against anyone unless they were in self defense. Which, in this case, the conservatives were. As such, they were in the right.

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

Again, look above, because that isn't what I am saying at all, and trying to twist my words into something you feel comfortable with mocking is not a good argument to make.

Did I actually attribute either position to you directly?

[Proctopeo]

What a wild year 2017 is so far.

Let's hope that people continue to fight back against Antifa the next time they try to commit acts of terror.

[Vassenor]

What a wild year 2017 is so far.

Let's hope that people continue to fight back against Antifa the next time they try to commit acts of terror.

So what makes this terrorism?

[Aelex]

Did I actually attribute either position to you directly?

You did were implying so.

[Aelex]

So what makes this terrorism?

They're using violence to further their political and ideological goals. That's textbook definition of terrorism.

[Uxupox]

What a wild year 2017 is so far.

Let's hope that people continue to fight back against Antifa the next time they try to commit acts of terror.

So what makes this terrorism?

Using violence as a motive to pursue a political agenda.

[Republic Of Varra]

What a wild year 2017 is so far.

Let's hope that people continue to fight back against Antifa the next time they try to commit acts of terror.

So what makes this terrorism?

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

The Antifa is a group that uses violence and intimidation to try to silence and hinder conservative/moderate protests and movements using threats, weapons, explosives, burning, using pepper spray, etc against political opponents at a peaceful rally.

[Styrvania]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Members of the left seem to be under the opinion that violence against the right, moderates, and just about anyone else that doesn't fit their world view or disagrees with them is good, at least.

But no violence against others who do not share your politics should never be encouraged. But if those that are attacked end up defending themselves, I say bravo, be they left, right, up, or down.

[Vassenor]

So let's take this back a step. Do we actually know who threw the first punch, or are we just going on who claims who did so?

[Proctopeo]

What a wild year 2017 is so far.

Let's hope that people continue to fight back against Antifa the next time they try to commit acts of terror.

So what makes this terrorism?

By the definition from Google:

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

That's what Antifa was doing here - using violence and intimidation against civilians for their political pursuits.

Since I previewed, I know I was ninja'd by Varra, but I still think it's important to put out my wording.

[Republic Of Varra]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Members of the left seem to be under the opinion that violence against the right, moderates, and just about anyone else that doesn't fit their world view or disagrees with them is good, at least.

But no violence against others who do not share your politics should never be encouraged. But if those that are attacked end up defending themselves, I say bravo, be they left, right, up, or down.

Well said.

[Liriena]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

Also, loling at OP essentially wanting to start this thread just so they could gloat about a "victory".

*pats OP on the back*

[Republic Of Varra]

So what we're saying is that violence against the left is good?

Also loling at "free speech advocates" saying that people shouldn't be allowed to counter-protest against them.

Also, loling at OP essentially wanting to start this thread just so they could gloat about a "victory".

*pats OP on the back*

Actually no. I'm a centrist detailing why I agree with these people for using self defense. If you don't have an opinion on the subject and just came in here for a witty comeback of sorts, I suggest you re-evaluate your coming here, and make an actual argument to defend your point instead of going "loling at the OP wanting to do something that he wants to gloat".

[Proctopeo]

So let's take this back a step. Do we actually know who threw the first punch, or are we just going on who claims who did so?

I'm not sure we can know for sure, but going by what is known, and existing trends, I'd say it's most likely Antifa who did.

[Republic Of Varra]

So let's take this back a step. Do we actually know who threw the first punch, or are we just going on who claims who did so?

Coming from someone who has watched all 6+ hours of the livestream, the Antifa first instigated the conflict and yes, began using violence first. Here is the livestream if you want to re-watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_q2MqQ40fQ

[Vassenor]

So let's take this back a step. Do we actually know who threw the first punch, or are we just going on who claims who did so?

I'm not sure we can know for sure, but going by what is known, and existing trends, I'd say it's most likely Antifa who did.

Well personally I don't like to make assumptions. The fact we know that the whole #magamilitia crap was going down means there's the potential for an agent provocateur to exist on both sides.

In fact it does seem like there were people trying to goad this sort of confrontation.

[Styrvania]

So let's take this back a step. Do we actually know who threw the first punch, or are we just going on who claims who did so?

I'm not sure we can know for sure, but going by what is known, and existing trends, I'd say it's most likely Antifa who did.

I was about to say the same. Based on the history, and what happened at my own campus just a few days ago, my bet is Antifa. I will admit this is in no way a solid way to establish who started it, merely my inclination.

[Ifreann]

I'm a left leaning type (but often critical of the left), but i don't think you can assign who "won" or "lost"

The truth is both displayed how far both betray their own values. The antifa are barely distinguishable from those they claim to hate, and free speech advocates resort to the same pointless violence. At least in the first "battle" the free speech advocates on the right demonstrated what a bunch of thugs the antifa are.

The Conservative side won because they were able to take the beating from the Antifa and disperse them, letting them continue their demonstration. Clear victory against the far left terrorist group.

The free speech advocates defended themselves by being pepper sprayed, pelted with bricks, rocks, bats, etc. while the police remained on stand by. That isn't betraying their values. That's standing up to thugs and practicing self defense.

It's fun to see the exact justifications antifas use being turned around on them. Very amusing.