Should fighting for terrorist groups be considered treason?

[Populi-Terrae]

Here in Australia, there is a serious issue of Australian Muslims going overseas to fight for Daesh. While my federal government has declared them terrorists (as they should), I'm wondering why they aren't being called traitors. They're fighting for a group that has stated on multiple occasions that it is at war with the West, including Australia. Therefore, by fighting with Daesh, these Australians are committing treason.

But what do you think? Should fighting for any terrorist group be considered treason?

[Gauthier]

Treason is generally reserved for serious shit like selling out your country's secrets or getting its assets compromised severely. Terrorism charges for alienated loners who turn into Daesh fanboys and go off to fight are more than adequate.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I prefer my countries way of dealing with this problem, they have henceforth forfeited their citizenship and have been essentially banished.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

Here in Australia, there is a serious issue of Australian Muslims going overseas to fight for Daesh. While my federal government has declared them terrorists (as they should), I'm wondering why they aren't being called traitors. They're fighting for a group that has stated on multiple occasions that it is at war with the West, including Australia. Therefore, by fighting with Daesh, these Australians are committing treason.

But what do you think? Should fighting for any terrorist group be considered treason?

Those who do so basically declare their allegiance to no longer be towards their country/town/region, but rather towards the international terrorist diaspora. Thus, their citizenship must be revoked (since its purpose is to affirm their allegiance to their country - therefore it would be dishonest to let them keep it after they have demonstrated their new allegiance).

I don't see how further punishment on the grounds of treason can be easily justified, however. It would be best to punish them for any subsequent crimes separately, rather than punish them for changing their allegiance as though that means they've instantly commited war crimes.

I prefer my countries way of dealing with this problem, they have henceforth forfeited their citizenship and have been essentially banished.

Indeed.

[Gauthier]

The thing with revoking citizenship is that opens the offender up to human rights abuses that would never be tolerated against citizens.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

The thing with revoking citizenship is that opens the offender up to human rights abuses that would never be tolerated against citizens.

That's another problem altogether; one that can be attributed to the fact that "human rights" are actually mere priveleges, not rights.

[Frank Zipper]

Perhaps recognising ISIS as a state, so that anybody who went to fight for them became a citizen of ISIS and would lose their original citizenship. They could then be refused re-entry to the UK or Australia or wherever. You go fight for ISIS then fuck you.

[The Alma Mater]

I prefer my countries way of dealing with this problem, they have henceforth forfeited their citizenship and have been essentially banished.

Which is illegal, unless those people happen to have dual citizenship.

[Aelex]

Which is illegal, unless those people happen to have dual citizenship.

A really sad thing. Traitors to the Fatherland don't deserve His mercy. Statelessness is the very least they should get for their treason.

[Minzerland II]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it treasonous. Unless it involves opposition to their countries forces, of course.

[Aelex]

The thing with revoking citizenship is that opens the offender up to human rights abuses that would never be tolerated against citizens.

And that's supposed to be somehow a bad thing...?
We used to put people to the firing squad for way less than what they did so those assholes getting some "abuse" in jail is not gonna make me cry.

[Aelex]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it treasonous.

What would you call betraying your country and going abroad to fight for its enemies then?

[Risottia]

Perhaps recognising ISIS as a state, so that anybody who went to fight for them became a citizen of ISIS and would lose their original citizenship.

This would be a viable way.

Anyway, here in Italy we just use the Codice Penale... and basically throw the whole book at them. And the catch is that one is still considered a citizen even if they lost for any reason the citizenship. So, the Codice Penale applies to them even abroad.

art.242 citizen bearing weapons against the Italian State (life in jail)
art.246 foreigners bribing citizen to act against the national interest (3 to 10 years)
art.270 subversive organisation (1 to 10 years)
art.270/bis organisations with the purpose of national or international terrorism or of subverting the democratic order (5 to 15 years)
art.270/quater recruitment with the purpose of national or international terrorism (7 to 15 years)
art.270/quater.1 organising journeys with the purpose of terrorism (5 to 8 years)
art.270/quinquies training with the purpose of national or international terrorism (5 to 10 years)

etc etc etc...


http://www.altalex.com/documents/codici ... ice-penale

[Minzerland II]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it treasonous.

What would you call betraying your country and going abroad to fight for its enemies then?

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

[Populi-Terrae]

What would you call betraying your country and going abroad to fight for its enemies then?

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

You're joking. They're fighting against their own country, the country that raised them and gave them a home.

[Aelex]

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

Well, probably, you know, the little part were they go abroad to fight for a State their fatherland is at war with, maybe?

[Minzerland II]

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

You're joking. They're fighting against their own country,

Your question is ambiguous. Terrorism isn't necessarily treasonous.

the country that raised them and gave them a home.

Shitty justification is shitty.

[Gauthier]

The thing with revoking citizenship is that opens the offender up to human rights abuses that would never be tolerated against citizens.

And that's supposed to be somehow a bad thing...?
We used to put people to the firing squad for way less than what they did so those assholes getting some "abuse" in jail is not gonna make me cry.

The part where you find absolutely nothing wrong witjh human rights violations and try to falsely equate torture and degradation like was exposed at Abu Ghraib to execution by firing squad makes debate rather unnecessary.

[Minzerland II]

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

Well, probably, you know, the little part were they go abroad to fight for a State their fatherland is at war with, maybe?

The question asked is ambiguous, it doesn't specify a circumstance, especially not one that describes the 'Fatherland' or 'Motherland' being the enemy of the terrorist group.

[Donut section]

Like BLM. Yes.

[Aelex]

The question asked is ambiguous, it doesn't specify a circumstance, especially not one that describes the 'Fatherland' or 'Motherland' being the enemy of the terrorist group.

My friend, if we're calling them terrorist, it's that their interests go contrarily to those of the Nation, else we would call them freedom fighters.

[Aelex]

The part where you find absolutely nothing wrong witjh human rights violations and try to falsely equate torture and degradation like was exposed at Abu Ghraib to execution by firing squad makes debate rather unnecessary.

Nothing wrong indeed with treating a little roughly traitors. :^)

[Gauthier]

Like BLM. Yes.

You're not the first one to tty and equate BLM with actual terrorists like Daesh, so the cool points were already given away. Also, wanting the protest of racial discrimination and killings to be declared treason. Very democratic values there.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

Explain how they're supposedly betraying their country?

You're joking. They're fighting against their own country, the country that raised them and gave them a home.

I could say the same about anti-Communist insurgents. The fact that the state chooses to try to give a crap about children's needs doesn't make the children "indebted" to the country in any way. One good act by the state does not excuse other, bad acts. If the child later grows up and decides it disagrees with its government's policy, it should be able to leave and fight against it.

For example, would you consider it treasonous for someone who has grown up in apartheid South Africa to join some other country's efforts to fight racism there, solely because the state provided him with an education (regardless of whether he wanted it or not)? The only justifiable action here (for choosing to fight against your home country alongside another one) would truly be revocation of citizenship. Any subsequent crimes are to be punished separately - such as the murder of innocents (from the person's home country or otherwise).

[Hurtful Thoughts]

IIRC, being caught on the opposing side in uniform is customarily accepted as being up for summarial execution.

This is true even in the US Military during WW2, pretty much why that scene where Spiers mows-down a company's worth of German-American prisoners isn't a warcrime.
-Same for the scene at the very start where some free-french are summarily executing Vichy-French sympathisers.

With the exception of pardoning Tokyo Rose (since she was tortured/forced and had her family threatened), things are pretty darned grim if you're caught helping the enemy.

So yeah, under international law it is possible to shoot pro-Daesh Aussies on sight, in Australia.
-Either as traitors to Daesh, or by becoming traitors as Australian citizens.

You'll still be charged with murder, ofc. Unless it's a military action.

In short, the Australian government has a blank-check to deal with as they wish as the ICC can't touch this with a 100 mile long pole.