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The "I was in the military" card

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Serphinia
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The "I was in the military" card

Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:53 pm

In discussions of politics and social issues, especially in the United States, it is not uncommon I've found for veterans, currently serving soldiers, or even people simply related to those who are/have served to cite their connection to the military as a way of lending a kind of greater legitimacy to their own opinions and viewpoints. Sometimes this behavior can branch beyond politics altogether and we get people who seem to think that having connections to military service grants them a sort of "wiser outlook" on life in general and that by merely reminding others of this connection, they have irreparably trumped anything anyone could possibly say in protest, because none of them could possibly understand the EYE-OPENING experience that is being a solider! It tends to be more common among conservatives though liberals are not immune.

Now look, I don't doubt for one minute that being in the military is a very daunting life choice that lend a person a lot of experience in areas such as the values of dicipline, hard work, and sacrifice, especially if you served in direct combat. But it seems that very few people (or at least Americans) are willing to draw a line in the sand as to where being a soldier lends greater weight to your opinions and where it does not. The simple act of responding to someone saying "I was a soldier" to boost their "cred" in a discussion with "That doesn't matter" comes across as an unspoken taboo in a lot of circles, and those who cross it are usually made to feel ashamed for suggesting... suggesting what? That being trained in combat doesn't do anything to teach you about properly budgeting the city's taxes, or what laws about public spaces should be passed, or who should be president? But it doesn't. Nobody denies that military service is rough, important work, but is there anything incorrect with pointing out that doing that work doesn't automatically make you an expert on every other function of society and life?

For one thing, soldiers and veterans do not all share the same opinions and views on everything. While one report found that while the US military is primarily conservative, it is not as conservative as some people might have you believe, and indeed this slant might be moreso due to the fact that people with pre-existing conservative viewpoints are more likely to join the military than it does with the military "granting" them those outlooks. Speaking from personal experience, I have at least three veterans in my family, one who was a marine and two who served in Korea, and all three were/are hardcore left-leaning liberals before and after service. Nothing about their services were any less hardcore or rough and yet they kept those views, a far cry from the, "All that hard work and getting my ass whipped in the military showed me how things work here in the REAL WORLD!" narrative some soldiers with opposing ideals would smugly pedal. I have seen videos and articles all preaching opposite positions from each other and yet all created by someone with connection to the military and tacitly if not outright stating this as a reason that they have more of a right to be listened to. They can't all be right "becuz military."

I think the problem is ultimately rooted in cofusing intention with qualification. Serving in the military can pretty much undoubtedly be cited as proof that one genuinely and strongly cares about the wellbeing of their country and is trying to make the best decisions for it - however, just because someone wants what's best doesn't mean that they know what's best. It seems to be easily forgotten in the heat of debate that hardly anyone out there is actively rooting for the destruction of their own country, people with opposing viewpoints more often than not truly, honest-to-god want the same things as you, they just think that those things are achieved in through different means. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When one is bent on seeing "destructive" practices for their country as a result of an underlying malice, it can then be easy to see how one might start to assume that those whose good intentions for their country are clear must have all the answers, but that's simply not how this really works.



So where exactly do we draw a line in the sand as to where one's military experience lending them expertise ends, and how do we go about pointing this out in the event that someone fallaciously tries to use military connections to claim undue authority on subject matter? What sort of areas and skills would you argue that someone can legitimately claim military service lends them authority in versus which ones it definitely does not? Has playing the "I was in the military" card hurt public discourse by creating a convenient shutdown button for certain people, has it lead to mistakes in legislature, if so, how and what?
Last edited by Serphinia on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:39 pm

It is a bit of a sore nerve for me, because there are those of us out there who're ineligible for military service.

My eyesight isn't good enough, so I'm excluded from service with any branch I could conceivably sign up for. I'm not going to bother applying if I know beforehand that I'll fail any physical. I've looked up the requirements and talked to recruiters in the know and I at least have it verified that I'm not what they're looking for. If I get 4F status put on my record, some people might discriminate against me if they see that.

Just another opportunity closed off to me because I was born into an imperfect body. I just wanted a job that doesn't pay pennies and didn't require a resume as a temporary meal ticket, whilst maybe learning some useful skills and overcoming adversity. It was never meant to be.

Am I still a chickenhawk if I'm more in favor of the use of force but never served, if the US military literally won't take me, even if there were a draft?
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:42 pm

Saiwania wrote:It is a bit of a sore nerve for me, because there are those of us out there who're ineligible for military service.

My eyesight isn't good enough, so I'm excluded from service with any branch I could conceivably sign up for. I'm not going to bother applying if I know beforehand that I'll fail any physical. I've looked up the requirements and talked to recruiters in the know and I at least have it verified that I'm not what they're looking for. If I get 4F status put on my record, some people might discriminate against me if they see that.

Just another opportunity closed off to me because I was born into an imperfect body. I just wanted a job that doesn't pay pennies and didn't require a resume as a temporary meal ticket, whilst maybe learning some useful skills and overcoming adversity. It was never meant to be.

Am I still a chickenhawk if I'm more in favor of the use of force but never served, if the US military literally won't take me, even if there were a draft?


One of the requirements to serve in the British Army is that one possess 12 of your own teeth. The was a guy in my basis group that had a full set of dentures. Maybe look at a reserve unit if front line have no interest?

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Sack Jackpot Winners
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Postby Sack Jackpot Winners » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:46 pm

Giving yourself legitimacy based off of your occupation, gender, or race is pretty popular and not just what the military does.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:52 pm

Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:Giving yourself legitimacy based off of your occupation, gender, or race is pretty popular and not just what the military does.

This, unless it's relevant then it's... not relevant.

And as with all personal experience Anecdotal_evidence rules apply.
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:01 pm

Aclion wrote:
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:Giving yourself legitimacy based off of your occupation, gender, or race is pretty popular and not just what the military does.

This, unless it's relevant then it's... not relevant.

And as with all personal experience Anecdotal_evidence rules apply.


I did not solely give anecdotal evidence, there's a link in the OP relaying the specific numbers of political leanings in the military. I gave my personal experience in addition to hard numbers to inform that I'm not just some anti-military "hippie" complaining about servicemen and women.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:06 pm

Yeah I've done it quite a bit, and I hate it when I do it. I've been trying to cut it down to mainly military related topics though
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:09 pm

Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:Giving yourself legitimacy based off of your occupation, gender, or race is pretty popular and not just what the military does.


Yes, but the military doing it often seems to be one of the few times a good chunk of people feel content to let it slip by unchallenged.

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:11 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Aclion wrote:This, unless it's relevant then it's... not relevant.

And as with all personal experience Anecdotal_evidence rules apply.


I did not solely give anecdotal evidence, there's a link in the OP relaying the specific numbers of political leanings in the military. I gave my personal experience in addition to hard numbers to inform that I'm not just some anti-military "hippie" complaining about servicemen and women.


No such thing as "leaning" political in the military. It is strictly neutral and you will find people from all walks of life in there.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:12 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:Giving yourself legitimacy based off of your occupation, gender, or race is pretty popular and not just what the military does.


Yes, but the military doing it often seems to be one of the few times a good chunk of people feel content to let it slip by unchallenged.

Not really, a lot of people try to demand rank and shit.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:14 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Aclion wrote:This, unless it's relevant then it's... not relevant.

And as with all personal experience Anecdotal_evidence rules apply.


I did not solely give anecdotal evidence, there's a link in the OP relaying the specific numbers of political leanings in the military. I gave my personal experience in addition to hard numbers to inform that I'm not just some anti-military "hippie" complaining about servicemen and women.

Um, what the hell does former military occupation got to do with political views? It's like saying all people who used to be mailmen have certain views.
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:15 pm

Uxupox wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
I did not solely give anecdotal evidence, there's a link in the OP relaying the specific numbers of political leanings in the military. I gave my personal experience in addition to hard numbers to inform that I'm not just some anti-military "hippie" complaining about servicemen and women.


No such thing as "leaning" political in the military. It is strictly neutral and you will find people from all walks of life in there.


No shit. The political leanings of the individuals is what I'm talking about. The link contains the findings of soldiers being asked who they'd vote for and how they'd describe their political compass, not, "this is what the military as an organization stands for!"

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:20 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
No such thing as "leaning" political in the military. It is strictly neutral and you will find people from all walks of life in there.


No shit. The political leanings of the individuals is what I'm talking about. The link contains the findings of soldiers being asked who they'd vote for and how they'd describe their political compass, not, "this is what the military as an organization stands for!"


The political leanings of every individual in the US military is either green, blue and brown. No other political leaning exists presently.
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:25 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
I did not solely give anecdotal evidence, there's a link in the OP relaying the specific numbers of political leanings in the military. I gave my personal experience in addition to hard numbers to inform that I'm not just some anti-military "hippie" complaining about servicemen and women.

Um, what the hell does former military occupation got to do with political views? It's like saying all people who used to be mailmen have certain views.


NOTHING, that's the point, obviously. There are people out there who like to claim being in the military creates a certain political viewpoint ("toughens them up and makes them see reality"), the "correct" viewpoint, when that is demonstrably false when you look and see that the military is filled with all different viewpoints.

Uxupox wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
No shit. The political leanings of the individuals is what I'm talking about. The link contains the findings of soldiers being asked who they'd vote for and how they'd describe their political compass, not, "this is what the military as an organization stands for!"


The political leanings of every individual in the US military is either green, blue and brown. No other political leaning exists presently.


Really now? They don't have politicians they'd rather see in office or laws they'd rather see passed? They don't ever vote again in their lives or register with a political party once they become involved with the military?

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Kaedshi
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Postby Kaedshi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:28 pm

Serphinia wrote:In discussions of politics and social issues, especially in the United States, it is not uncommon I've found for veterans, currently serving soldiers, or even people simply related to those who are/have served to cite their connection to the military as a way of lending a kind of greater legitimacy to their own opinions and viewpoints. Sometimes this behavior can branch beyond politics altogether and we get people who seem to think that having connections to military service grants them a sort of "wiser outlook" on life in general and that by merely reminding others of this connection, they have irreparably trumped anything anyone could possibly say in protest, because none of them could possibly understand the EYE-OPENING experience that is being a solider! It tends to be more common among conservatives though liberals are not immune.

Now look, I don't doubt for one minute that being in the military is a very daunting life choice that lend a person a lot of experience in areas such as the values of dicipline, hard work, and sacrifice, especially if you served in direct combat. But it seems that very few people (or at least Americans) are willing to draw a line in the sand as to where being a soldier lends greater weight to your opinions and where it does not. The simple act of responding to someone saying "I was a soldier" to boost their "cred" in a discussion with "That doesn't matter" comes across as an unspoken taboo in a lot of circles, and those who cross it are usually made to feel ashamed for suggesting... suggesting what? That being trained in combat doesn't do anything to teach you about properly budgeting the city's taxes, or what laws about public spaces should be passed, or who should be president? But it doesn't. Nobody denies that military service is rough, important work, but is there anything incorrect with pointing out that doing that work doesn't automatically make you an expert on every other function of society and life?

For one thing, soldiers and veterans do not all share the same opinions and views on everything. While one report found that while the US military is primarily conservative, it is not as conservative as some people might have you believe, and indeed this slant might be moreso due to the fact that people with pre-existing conservative viewpoints are more likely to join the military than it does with the military "granting" them those outlooks. Speaking from personal experience, I have at least three veterans in my family, one who was a marine and two who served in Korea, and all three were/are hardcore left-leaning liberals before and after service. Nothing about their services were any less hardcore or rough and yet they kept those views, a far cry from the, "All that hard work and getting my ass whipped in the military showed me how things work here in the REAL WORLD!" narrative some soldiers with opposing ideals would smugly pedal. I have seen videos and articles all preaching opposite positions from each other and yet all created by someone with connection to the military and tacitly if not outright stating this as a reason that they have more of a right to be listened to. They can't all be right "becuz military."

I think the problem is ultimately rooted in cofusing intention with qualification. Serving in the military can pretty much undoubtedly be cited as proof that one genuinely and strongly cares about the wellbeing of their country and is trying to make the best decisions for it - however, just because someone wants what's best doesn't mean that they know what's best. It seems to be easily forgotten in the heat of debate that hardly anyone out there is actively rooting for the destruction of their own country, people with opposing viewpoints more often than not truly, honest-to-god want the same things as you, they just think that those things are achieved in through different means. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When one is bent on seeing "destructive" practices for their country as a result of an underlying malice, it can then be easy to see how one might start to assume that those whose good intentions for their country are clear must have all the answers, but that's simply not how this really works.

So where exactly do we draw a line in the sand as to where one's military experience lending them expertise ends, and how do we go about pointing this out in the event that someone fallaciously tries to use military connections to claim undue authority on subject matter? What sort of areas and skills would you argue that someone can legitimately claim military service lends them authority in versus which ones it definitely does not? Has playing the "I was in the military" card hurt public discourse by creating a convenient shutdown button for certain people, has it lead to mistakes in legislature, if so, how and what?

It's silly for one to think that serving in the military has no bearing in discussion. Military service covers a lot of areas, from personality, to physical activity, to leadership, to military tech. There are many things which are given more credence when they are said by someone who has served in the military. However, as you say, where is the line? The line stands at discussions which cover topics that are not relevant to the military, simply enough. "I like peanut butter and jelly over listening to the grass grow, and you should believe me because I was a Marine," is not involved because it's not at all relevant to to military service or the things it teaches, obviously. More seriously, someone who says "Every follower of Islam is a terrorist, and you should believe me because I was in the military," should not be given credence just based on that fact. Islam and its tenets are not any part of the US' military, or the military of any other nation for that matter. However, someone who says "Instead of going right up the center at that group of harassers, we should spread around them and utilize the element of surprise. I know of this technique because I was a marine," is lent more credence in this, their area of expertise.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:29 pm

Sure, it happens. I still respect the fuck out of our vets, and think they should be treated 100x better.

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Um, what the hell does former military occupation got to do with political views? It's like saying all people who used to be mailmen have certain views.


NOTHING, that's the point, obviously. There are people out there who like to claim being in the military creates a certain political viewpoint ("toughens them up and makes them see reality"), the "correct" viewpoint, when that is demonstrably false when you look and see that the military is filled with all different viewpoints.

Uxupox wrote:
The political leanings of every individual in the US military is either green, blue and brown. No other political leaning exists presently.


Really now? They don't have politicians they'd rather see in office or laws they'd rather see passed? They don't ever vote again in their lives or register with a political party once they become involved with the military?


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Postby Republic of Canador » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:45 pm

It's annoying. I could not care less about what someone thinks simply because they were in the military. If it were a scenario where a veteran saw the effects of something first hand, and spoke out against it because of their experience, that is fine; they aren't pulling the "I was in the military" card because they actually saw what happened.
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:45 pm

Uxupox wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
NOTHING, that's the point, obviously. There are people out there who like to claim being in the military creates a certain political viewpoint ("toughens them up and makes them see reality"), the "correct" viewpoint, when that is demonstrably false when you look and see that the military is filled with all different viewpoints.



Really now? They don't have politicians they'd rather see in office or laws they'd rather see passed? They don't ever vote again in their lives or register with a political party once they become involved with the military?


The only politician I would like to see is King Matthis the I.


That's nice, here's the numbers from the ones concerned with the real layout, survey links in OP link:

The independent Military Times newspapers conducted an voluntary survey among its members that shows them supporting Romney over Obama by a greater than 2-to-1 margin. But the newspaper’s subscribers are older and more senior in rank than the military as a whole, and the fact that it’s a self-selected sample can further distort its findings.

Indeed, there has been a conservative drift among U.S. military officers since the draft ended. In a 2009 survey of 4,000 Army officers, Heidi Urben, an active-duty officer and doctoral candidate at Georgetown University, found that between 1976 and 1996, the share of senior military officers identifying itself as Republican jumped from one-third to two-thirds, while those claiming to be moderates fell from 46% to 22%.

Senior military officers who described themselves as liberal fell from 16% in 1976 to 3% in 1996. Urben found that younger officers leaving the Army were far more likely to identify themselves as Democrats than those opting to stay, which would tend to make the more senior ranks increasingly Republican.

“Past surveys have shown senior military officers to generally be conservative and identify with the Republican Party, a trend which has solidified with the advent and professionalism of the all-volunteer force,” Urben wrote in her 2010 dissertation. “Meanwhile, recent surveys suggest that the officer corps is more likely to be conservative and Republican than most enlisted Soldiers, an important distinction to keep in mind, considering enlisted Soldiers outnumber officers by four to one in the Army.”

A Pew survey released last year showed post-9/11 veterans’ political leanings are the reverse of the public they’re serving: 36% describe themselves as Republicans, and 21% as Democrats; 34% of the public said they were Democrats, and 23% Republican. Six in 10 vets say they’re more patriotic than the average American.

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:49 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
The only politician I would like to see is King Matthis the I.


That's nice, here's the numbers from the ones concerned with the real layout, survey links in OP link:

The independent Military Times newspapers conducted an voluntary survey among its members that shows them supporting Romney over Obama by a greater than 2-to-1 margin. But the newspaper’s subscribers are older and more senior in rank than the military as a whole, and the fact that it’s a self-selected sample can further distort its findings.

Indeed, there has been a conservative drift among U.S. military officers since the draft ended. In a 2009 survey of 4,000 Army officers, Heidi Urben, an active-duty officer and doctoral candidate at Georgetown University, found that between 1976 and 1996, the share of senior military officers identifying itself as Republican jumped from one-third to two-thirds, while those claiming to be moderates fell from 46% to 22%.

Senior military officers who described themselves as liberal fell from 16% in 1976 to 3% in 1996. Urben found that younger officers leaving the Army were far more likely to identify themselves as Democrats than those opting to stay, which would tend to make the more senior ranks increasingly Republican.

“Past surveys have shown senior military officers to generally be conservative and identify with the Republican Party, a trend which has solidified with the advent and professionalism of the all-volunteer force,” Urben wrote in her 2010 dissertation. “Meanwhile, recent surveys suggest that the officer corps is more likely to be conservative and Republican than most enlisted Soldiers, an important distinction to keep in mind, considering enlisted Soldiers outnumber officers by four to one in the Army.”

A Pew survey released last year showed post-9/11 veterans’ political leanings are the reverse of the public they’re serving: 36% describe themselves as Republicans, and 21% as Democrats; 34% of the public said they were Democrats, and 23% Republican. Six in 10 vets say they’re more patriotic than the average American.


Would you look at that. There are both democrats and republicans serving in the military force! Who would have known.
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Serphinia
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Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:51 pm

Major-Tom wrote:Sure, it happens. I still respect the fuck out of our vets, and think they should be treated 100x better.


Of course. But respect doesn't mean not calling this stuff out. There comes a perception otherwise though with some.

Uxupox wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
That's nice, here's the numbers from the ones concerned with the real layout, survey links in OP link:

The independent Military Times newspapers conducted an voluntary survey among its members that shows them supporting Romney over Obama by a greater than 2-to-1 margin. But the newspaper’s subscribers are older and more senior in rank than the military as a whole, and the fact that it’s a self-selected sample can further distort its findings.

Indeed, there has been a conservative drift among U.S. military officers since the draft ended. In a 2009 survey of 4,000 Army officers, Heidi Urben, an active-duty officer and doctoral candidate at Georgetown University, found that between 1976 and 1996, the share of senior military officers identifying itself as Republican jumped from one-third to two-thirds, while those claiming to be moderates fell from 46% to 22%.

Senior military officers who described themselves as liberal fell from 16% in 1976 to 3% in 1996. Urben found that younger officers leaving the Army were far more likely to identify themselves as Democrats than those opting to stay, which would tend to make the more senior ranks increasingly Republican.

“Past surveys have shown senior military officers to generally be conservative and identify with the Republican Party, a trend which has solidified with the advent and professionalism of the all-volunteer force,” Urben wrote in her 2010 dissertation. “Meanwhile, recent surveys suggest that the officer corps is more likely to be conservative and Republican than most enlisted Soldiers, an important distinction to keep in mind, considering enlisted Soldiers outnumber officers by four to one in the Army.”

A Pew survey released last year showed post-9/11 veterans’ political leanings are the reverse of the public they’re serving: 36% describe themselves as Republicans, and 21% as Democrats; 34% of the public said they were Democrats, and 23% Republican. Six in 10 vets say they’re more patriotic than the average American.


Would you look at that. There are both democrats and republicans serving in the military force! Who would have known.


Uh, me, until you decided to pretend otherwise for some reason.

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Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13447
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:Sure, it happens. I still respect the fuck out of our vets, and think they should be treated 100x better.


Of course. But respect doesn't mean not calling this stuff out. There comes a perception otherwise though with some.

Uxupox wrote:
Would you look at that. There are both democrats and republicans serving in the military force! Who would have known.


Uh, me, until you decided to pretend otherwise for some reason.


Because in reality it doesn't really matter. Unless you want to end up like this guy or that other dumb ass that decided to go in uniform to a political rally.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

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Serphinia
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: Oct 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Serphinia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:00 pm

Uxupox wrote:
Serphinia wrote:
Of course. But respect doesn't mean not calling this stuff out. There comes a perception otherwise though with some.



Uh, me, until you decided to pretend otherwise for some reason.


Because in reality it doesn't really matter. Unless you want to end up like this guy or that other dumb ass that decided to go in uniform to a political rally.


The fact that you can't express politics while acting as a representative of the military has zilch to do with the topic. The fact remains that soldiers still participate in political thinking and subscribe to political viewpoints on their own time as independent people, and some people may cite their military experience as informing those viewpoints. If you don't care about that fact you're more than welcome to leave, it'd be better than this obvious backpedaling nonsense meant to cover up your original misreading.

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13447
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:04 pm

Serphinia wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
Because in reality it doesn't really matter. Unless you want to end up like this guy or that other dumb ass that decided to go in uniform to a political rally.


The fact that you can't express politics while acting as a representative of the military has zilch to do with the topic. The fact remains that soldiers still participate in political thinking and subscribe to political viewpoints on their own time as independent people, and some people may cite their military experience as informing those viewpoints. If you don't care about that fact you're more than welcome to leave, it'd be better than this obvious backpedaling nonsense meant to cover up your original misreading.


The only real expertise that the military members offer is intelligence community, foreign diplomacy (Possibly police action as well for internal affairs) and military action against other forces.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

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