Is it cost-effective for a society to pay for transgenders?

[Arlenton]

That is from alcoholism and suicide. Not from begin tans. It is different than an illness such as cancer. I don't even think I would call being trans an illness at all.

I should think that something unusual that reasonably requires treatment to manage is an illness or disorder.

But on the same level of cancer? I would think money should be focused more on cancer and other life threatening diseases and than on disorders that may cause a person to be more suicidal.

[Neutraligon]

That is from alcoholism and suicide. Not from begin tans. It is different than an illness such as cancer. I don't even think I would call being trans an illness at all.

I should think that something unusual that reasonably requires treatment to manage is an illness or disorder.

Not all Trans people need treatment, thus they are correct that being trans is not a disorder. Gender Dysphoria on the other hand is a disorder that is currently treated with transition.

[Anadarsia]

That is true for everyone. I do not need to care about what you like either. I fail to see your point.

There is no objective value. There is no imperative moral prescription to care about people killing themselves. That's what you believe if you're consistent.
So if I borrow that train of thought, I can also choose to not care about people killing themselves. Moralistic outrage is all too religious.

[Reploid Productions]

Standby.

[Farnhamia]

Case in point would be around public healthcare, not private treatments that the patient in question would pay for himself.

Hormone therapy and sex change operations aren't strictly speaking necessary to ensure the survival of the patient, they resemble instead cosmetic treatments more, where the patient doing them does it to feel about better his image.

From surgery encyclopedia I found the following number:
"In-depth psychological counseling should precede and follow any gender reassignment surgical procedure. Sex change surgery is expensive. The cost for male to female reassignment is $7,000 to $24,000. The cost for female to male reassignment can exceed $50,000"

Transgenders have a noticeably lower life expectancy, they rarely have children of their own since well... their genitals are often compromised, and display the highest HIV rate at times.
http://www.hivplusmag.com/case-studies/ ... o-hard-hiv

It is likely then that the cost for the public cases of funding such non-essential treatments wouldn't be cost effective in the long run. The patient lives less and thus pays less taxes to return for such cost (add the lifelong hormonal therapy), will almost certainly not reproduce and thus not help for the aging of society and shrinking of the work force, and treating them for depression and HIV will just fatten the bill more and more.

With that in mind, is it really worth it to publically fund these non-essential treatments, rather than let it be a cosmetic procedure to be paid privately if it's really that important to them?

*** 7 day ban for trolling and baiting throughout the thread. ***

[Reploid Productions]

So, Farn an I sorta-collided on this one.

My claims
- People with Down's syndrome don't ask for expensive customized treatments on account of being born with an impediment, transgenders do.
- Suicide is a choice, an individual choice, nobody forces anyone to off themselves.
- Life includes hardship and anguish. It's part of the deal of being alive.

Lonely poor men could have their self-esteem improved by having sex with whores and escorts. We should give them money so they do that and their qualiteh of laifu improves.

No, it's not. That's just what maturing is all about. Taking responsibility for your life and stop expecting the world to hand you out something.

Woah you dont know the pain of inceldom, wah wah, how could you not relate to the self-esteem crushing experience of a man who can't get laid, blah blah blah, it is really a terrible ordeal that we should all be concerned, after all, his mental issues affect us all.

I wonder if soon enough we'll be require to speak to Multiple Personality disorder as if we agree on them actually being 2 or more people trapped in a single body. Emitting IDs for each of the 'persons' residing therein, and allowing for schedule flexibility when there's a change in the operator of the body.

You never know. I'm now open to the possibility of post-structuralism changing anything. For a couple of years now, there's been a push to legalize incest in marriage, some German committee proposed just that, and there are now fully functional lobby groups working on rendering sex with children acceptable. Why not Multiple personality disorder?

After all, that's the way society works nowadays. "I have issues but it's clearly society's fault, so plz, help me the poor victim, feed my delusions or otherwise I'll kill myself and that's SO SO important, and people should care about me killing myself"

There there, it's not so bad.

People are supposed to reach adulthood after their teen years. Being overgrown children whose temper tamtrums elicit yielding and pampering is not a way to build a healthy society where men and women take responsibility for their own lives. Maybe, just maybe, your issues are your own, not mine or anyone else's.

They'll either fix their problems or they'll find life to be too big of a mess and off themselves, and those remaining can build a better future, that is both healthier and more mature.

Society, just like anything, will be better off in the end if it lets its sick limbs go away and instead nourishes the healthy ones. this entire idea of "help us or we kill ourselves is hilarious". Just like any relationship where a person goes "if you leave me, I'll kill myself", the right thing to do is to call their bluff.

If the time comes and people stop getting worried and outraged at your threat of "I'll kill myself if u don't...", like a girl who has heard the same threat by her boyfriend a dozen times now, what will you do? Will you pull through with it?

I don't advocate anything, don't confuse me with your average uni dorm activist.

Not really, didn't put any thought into it. I just know very well that "do this, or I'll kill myself", should always be required with 'go right ahead'. Blackmailing out of some misplaced sense of moralism doesn't work for the long term, just makes things worse.
I really don't know whether they'll kill themselves or not, but that's their choice and their problem.

I still don't see how this is an issue, specially coming from you, an atheist. Life has no ulterior meaning as per atheism.

Efficiency like I said for about 10 posts now. Can you read please?

I feel like you're expecting me to care about people killing themselves. So weird.

Yep, but we're a forum of bored people killing time. I had a couple of hours to spare so came here to talk about something and get entertained. Figured I'd post this.
None of it is of much consequence, correct.

Prior to the thread trawl, we were going to let you off with a 3-day ban. However, given your conduct throughout the thread, including psuedo-threadjacking and plenty of very subtle trolling, there is sufficient evidence on top of your prior record with your old nations to merit the bump to 7-days off.

Then I'm sure you'd also be fine with people with species dysphoria receiving government-funding for their cosmetic changes too, because believe me, such people exist.

Eh, like it or not Otherkin are a thing. Neurology aside, there are people who genuinely believe they are an animal trapped in a human's body. Then again, most seem to be autistic, so I guess one can make logical conclusions.

*** Sanctissima, WARNED for trolling. *** The whole "species dysphoria" spiel is NOTHING but a giant troll. One thing has an actual DSM-V diagnostic classification. The other is not, and trying to equate the two trolls both transgenders and furries/otherkin/etc. Knock it off.

Taxes are a twisted Zionist plot for one and two funding this crap only proves the true evil behind it and the Satanic Federal Reserve.

*** Neuwland, 1-day ban for trolling/threadjacking. *** This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread, and appears to be worded for no other reason than to rile people up.

You're literally jusg shitposting at this point

This thread is cancer

If only we had somewhere that people could report stuff! This post serves NO purpose other than to pour more fuel on the fire. If you see "shitposting", then don't post in the thread to cry "Troll!" or "Shitpost!" or "This thread is cancer!", report it in Moderation so it can be dealt with.

tbf I don't trust radical feminists when they talk about "oppression"

My point being that even though female radical feminists are the group that lives with discrimination it doesn't mean that 25% of women are raped on college campuses. And if you say otherwise it's mansplaining. Not necessarily disagreeing here but that wasn't a good argument.

And what, pray tell, does this have at all to do with the topic? Nothing, that's what. The topic was transgender individuals and whether or not public healthcare funds should be used to pay for gender dysphoria treatments. NOT feminism of any type, not rape, not mansplaining. Knock off the threadjacking.

Above all it's immoral and sick.
The idea of wanting to treat gender identity disorder by handing out sex change operations, enforcing the rest of society to nod their head and pretend they've changed the person's gender is a like grabbing one of those lunatics who think they're Napoleon, making the government buy them the uniform and then making sure everyone calls him Emperor of the French, or else they're being Napoleophobic.

It's a sign of sick times when something like this is even a question.

Oh how, 'pay for me gender change, or I'll kill myself!'.
Any person who would off themselves because they can't get their genitalia mutilated, has no place in society.
Although I disagree with the rest of the posters that say the state shouldn't help them. These people need to be sent to psych wards where they aren't a danger to themselves or others.

The man yelling at traffic is Napoleon by your logic. I'm afraid you can put makeup on a pig and it wont become a woman. Same applies for a dude.

That's better buddy, but that wasn't my point. The idea is that a government shouldnt pay for bizarre surgeries just to prevent a possible suicide caused by mental illness. These people are mentally ill, and letting them play around in their fantasy is just abhorrent. And frankly, condescending. Let's not spread misinformation just for the sake of protecting peoples feelings. Its quite interesting too, that the majority of the replies I got were based on hurt feelings as opposed to directly addressing my argument, which nobody did so far.

Both based on mental illness. And hey, wake up call buddy, the feelings of a derranged person are not relevant to the decision making of government.
"Oh but I really feel like a girl!"
This is a clear sign that someone is insane. People who are insane should have no place in decision making.
If your type of insanity makes you more likely to commit suicide, that doesn't mean society should play along with your illness and say you're normal and its okay. It's not, and you're sick. This is why trannies kill themselves so much, especially post-op. They become old men, no matter how many hormones they take. At that point they finally get hit by reality.
I blame those who created a bubble around them and told them they weren't sick deviants who need to get their heads sorted, not their bodies.

Lol look at this freak. You are insane, a derranged individual that has no place in society. Maybe trannies do end up killing themselves once they realise what sort of freaks they really are. Sad!

So, a boatload of blatant trolling, topped off with blatant, crystal clear flaming. You need to familiarize yourself with the site rules, quickly. You are in for a bad time if you do not.

*** Sillexant, 3-day ban for sustained trolling/flaming. ***

Your ignorance is breathtaking. Have you ever even discussed the experiences of transgender people? Do you even have the vaguest idea of what you're wittering on about?

I am trying to gauge whether you're wilfully ignorant, or simply misinformed.

This is skirting extremely uncomfortably close to the line between "attacking the opinion/argument" and "attacking the poster." Might want to back off from the line some.

I don't think you need to worry about any of us thinking you're in university.

Damnit, Merizoc, you have been around plenty long enough to know better than this. Sneaky digs are still flaming, and I know you are fully capable of tearing an argument to ribbons without resorting to these zingers about your opponent's intelligence.
*** Merizoc, warned for flaming. ***

Anyhow, given the sorry state of the thread thanks to the OP's trolling throughout, thread stays locked.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku