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Should 3rd Party Voters be blamed for the Trump Victory?

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Free Missouri
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Postby Free Missouri » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:02 pm

Agartala wrote:
Traxa wrote:
Hillary clinton didnt win the popular vote so you can hate on the EC all you want, it doesn't change anything.

She won the popular vote by .2 percentage points. Look it up.


She had an edge in the popular vote. she didn't have a majority. and any popular voting system would have to require a majority lest you want civil war part II knocking on your door.
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:02 pm

Traxa wrote:
New haven america wrote:While it did hurt, I don't think they're mainly to blame. The system, former Bernie or Bust voters, the Democratic Party's internal drama, Komy, etc... all had a hand in Trump's win.

I personally place most of my blame on the EC, it's an unneeded system that has lead to the loser of the Popular Vote (You know, the part that should matter) to win multiple times. (Trump is currently the 5th person to get away with this)


Hillary clinton didnt win the popular vote so you can hate on the EC all you want, it doesn't change anything.

Yes, actually, she did, by over 220,000.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Free Missouri
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Postby Free Missouri » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:05 pm

New haven america wrote:
Traxa wrote:
Hillary clinton didnt win the popular vote so you can hate on the EC all you want, it doesn't change anything.

Yes, actually, she did by over 220,000.


She didn't win, she had a PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y

any popular voting system would have to require a majority lest you want civil war part II knocking on your door.
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Kalifati Arab shqiptar
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Postby Kalifati Arab shqiptar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:06 pm

You are almost saying this was bad for America.

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Postby Hittanryan » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:07 pm

No, the Democrats' disregard for working class voters, Trump's disingenuous populism, and the Electoral College are to blame. Clinton had more of the popular vote; no third party candidate spoiled the election for her.
Last edited by Hittanryan on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Greater German Federal Republic » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:08 pm

Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:You are almost saying this was bad for America.

Yep, people should give Donald a chance, he isn't even president yet.
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:10 pm

Free Missouri wrote:
New haven america wrote:Yes, actually, she did by over 220,000.


She didn't win, she had a PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y

any popular voting system would have to require a majority lest you want civil war part II knocking on your door.

She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby New Grestin » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:18 pm

The blame isn't purely on the third party voters. You can't blame misguided, nigh suicidal optimism.

No, the lions share of the blame is on the American people.

This is our fault. We could've stopped this while there was still time, and we didn't. Now, we're likely to see at least eight years of conservative, likely Alt-right hegemony in the Federal government.

That said, when the next hurricane hits Florida and the rest of the South, I'm sure as shit keeping my wallet shut when time comes to donate.
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Free Missouri
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Postby Free Missouri » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:20 pm

New haven america wrote:
Free Missouri wrote:
She didn't win, she had a PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y

any popular voting system would have to require a majority lest you want civil war part II knocking on your door.

She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?
.l I actually heavily dislike trump, I am simply going up against the idea that there is some kind of mandate for Hillary Clinton simply because she has 48% of the vote and Donald Trump has 47%
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Kalifati Arab shqiptar
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Postby Kalifati Arab shqiptar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:21 pm

New haven america wrote:
Free Missouri wrote:
She didn't win, she had a PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y

any popular voting system would have to require a majority lest you want civil war part II knocking on your door.

She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?

Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.

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Postby Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:23 pm

Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:
New haven america wrote:She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?

Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.

I said the electoral college was stupid then, but it didn't change the result of those elections. It doesn't matter overmuch how MUCH you win or lose an election, but just whether you win or lose.

It's like the old saying:

Do you know what they call the person who graduates last from medical school?

Doctor.
Last edited by Galloism on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kalifati Arab shqiptar
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Postby Kalifati Arab shqiptar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:23 pm

The Greater German Federal Republic wrote:For crying out loud, can't they just accept the election results and not start a witchhunt on people for Donald's victory?

This is getting ridiculous...

Soon for Mama Merkel too, dw. This is not the focus of the thread but what ever.

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Postby Gun Manufacturers » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:24 pm

Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:
New haven america wrote:She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?

Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.


I live in one of those gray areas. And yes, most of the people in those blue areas voted different than I did. Of course, since I voted for Gary Johnson, that's not really a surprise to me.
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Kalifati Arab shqiptar
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Postby Kalifati Arab shqiptar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:27 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:
Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.

I said the electoral college was stupid then, but it didn't change the result of those elections. It doesn't matter overmuch how MUCH you win or lose an election, but just whether you win or lose.

It's like the old saying:

Do you know what they call the person who graduates last from medical school?

Doctor.

Even China has electoral committees for Hong Kong and Macau, America should too because the little guys need representation.

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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:28 pm

Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:
New haven america wrote:She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?

Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.

Yes, actually, liberals who were against the EC were complaing about it. Because, as stated before, the EC is a terrible system.

Also, I live in one of those gray areas.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Herskerstad » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:32 pm

Think the Republicans struggled far more with the Libertarian vote than the Dems did with the Greens.
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:34 pm

Free Missouri wrote:
New haven america wrote:She didn't win the EC, but she won the Popular Vote.

Also, you claim to be against Plurality (Oh, I'm sorry, PLURALITY PLUR-AL-IT-Y), yet under Donald Trump we'd be living under a Tyranny of the Minority won under the EC's Plurality, and yet you don't seem to mind.

You seem to understand what a Plurality is, but do you understand what a "Hypocrite" is?
.l I actually heavily dislike trump, I am simply going up against the idea that there is some kind of mandate for Hillary Clinton simply because she has 48% of the vote and Donald Trump has 47%

No, there is no mandate, however, I wouldn't be complaining so heavily (I've been complaining and protesting against the EC for years now) about this if anyone else (Well, not anyone...) won the election. However, due to the EC, we've elected the worst possible choice, even though the majority of votes were against it.

Also, as someone who lives in Rural America, please stop bringing it up, my county voted mostly Democrat, so yeah...
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kalifati Arab shqiptar
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Postby Kalifati Arab shqiptar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:36 pm

New haven america wrote:
Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:
Image

Liberals weren't complaining when it disproportionately represented Obama's popular vote.

Yes, actually, liberals who were against the EC were complaing about it. Because, as stated before, the EC is a terrible system.

Also, I live in one of those gray areas.

But it wasn't a lot of them were they, they were too busy celebrating Obama.

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Postby Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:37 pm

Kalifati Arab shqiptar wrote:Even China has electoral committees for Hong Kong and Macau, America should too because the little guys need representation.

The little guys HAVE representation - the same as anybody else.

Well, no, actually that's not true. In the current system they have somewhere between 30 and 60% more representation than everybody else.

One of the things I absolutely hate about the electoral college is that is disincentivizes voting. It also completely ignores regional desperation. It incentivizes voter apathy and voter suppression, because the voters in a given state get the same voice whether they have 80% turnout or 5% turnout. This contrasts heavily with a FPTP instant runoff general election, where if the people of Arkansas are desperate for change, and show up at 90% turnout, it actually makes a difference in the general election.

As it is, if you don't live in a swing state, whether you show up at all is basically irrelevant to the general election, and I say that as a person who encourages voting.

Doing away with the electoral college would encourage all voters to get out and vote, swing state or not. In fact, the concept of a swing state would be render obsolete. It would also effectively punish those who engage in voter suppression tactics on a state level, as that would actually reduce the amount of representation those state's citizens would have in the general election. Instead, it doesn't harm that state's representation at all.

I mean, presuming you think that citizens should have an equal voice in government, doing away with the electoral college is undeniably a good thing. Now, the problem is the plurality problem, which could be worked out by preference voting.
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Postby Sareva » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:42 pm

New Grestin wrote:The blame isn't purely on the third party voters. You can't blame misguided, nigh suicidal optimism.

No, the lion's share of the blame is on the American people.

This is our fault. We could've stopped this while there was still time, and we didn't. Now, we're likely to see at least eight years of conservative, likely Alt-right hegemony in the Federal government.

That said, when the next hurricane hits Florida and the rest of the South, I'm sure as shit keeping my wallet shut when time comes to donate.

I live in the South.


Thanks buddy, I think I can live without your donations. I voted Johnson, but who cares, right? I'm just another Alt-Righter, right? Obviously Gary Johnson wasn't going to win. That's not why people voted for him! I voted for Johnson because he closely represented my values and beliefs the most! Albeit not as much as you think.
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Postby Veridys » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:41 pm

No it's not. It is your right to vote for whoever you want. It's your choice, not theirs.
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:45 pm

People really need to look at two things before they blame 3rd parties for spoiling the election:

1. What state are the 3rd party votes in? I voted for Gary Johnson, but Clinton still won my state without much trouble, so my vote has nothing to do with her losing.

2. Who would the 3rd party voters go to if they were forced to choose between the major parties? You can't assume we'd all go to Clinton. Personally, Clinton was my 2nd choice, but there are other 3rd party voters that would go to Trump.

Karjin wrote:It certainly hurt. Didn't Utah have an independent actually gain more votes than HRC?


Utah wasn't going to go blue anyway.
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Postby Ebliania » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:46 pm

USS Monitor wrote:People really need to look at two things before they blame 3rd parties for spoiling the election:

1. What state are the 3rd party votes in? I voted for Gary Johnson, but Clinton still won my state without much trouble, so my vote has nothing to do with her losing.

2. Who would the 3rd party voters go to if they were forced to choose between the major parties? You can't assume we'd all go to Clinton. Personally, Clinton was my 2nd choice, but there are other 3rd party voters that would go to Trump.

but we need a scapegoat :(

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Postby New Chalcedon » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:49 pm

New Roma Republic wrote:On the book of faces, I have seen multiple posts from my Pro-Clinton friends blaming third party voters as the reason Clinton lost. They say things to the effect of "...third party voters: this wasn't the election to express your distaste in the political system" (That partial quote came from a friend of a friend on Facebook). I feel that this is an unfair generalization. Yes, I voted third party. Yes, I realized at the time I was throwing away my vote. And no, I did not vote as a protest to the system. I voted for the candidate who most closely represented my beliefs.

First, let me say that I am a freshman college student studying Aerospace Engineering, 18, and from a affluent area. I am a white, heterosexual male, and I lean center-left, politically. I come from a fairly conservative area, though it has small pockets of vocal liberals. I am registered as a Democrat, but I vote for whoever I like the best. So now that you know a little about me politically, here is why I voted third party:

I could not in good conscious vote for Donald Trump. I cannot get behind someone who says the stuff he says, even if he says it only to get attention.

As for Hillary Clinton, she just doesn't represent who I am. Sure, it would be nice to have the first woman president, however, there is so much corruption surrounding her that I could not vote for her in good conscious either. So I voted for an obscure third party that very few people had heard of. Why? Because he (mostly) represented my views.

Now, I can see why us third party candidates are being blamed; we always get blamed by the losing side. But you must understand, if I hadn't voted third party, I would not have voted for Clinton. Or Trump. I would have abstained from the Presidential election because the choices were so bad. And that is my right. I have the right to make any decision I want, and I made mine wholeheartedly. If I had the chance to do a do over, I would still vote for the person I voted for.

So, NS, what is your take on this? Are third parties to blame for the Trump Presidency? Do most people vote third party just to express their distaste in the electoral system? Please, give your thoughts below!


No - looking at the mathematics, the idea that excluding 3rd-party candidates would have stopped Trump is just silly.
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:54 pm

Ebliania wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:People really need to look at two things before they blame 3rd parties for spoiling the election:

1. What state are the 3rd party votes in? I voted for Gary Johnson, but Clinton still won my state without much trouble, so my vote has nothing to do with her losing.

2. Who would the 3rd party voters go to if they were forced to choose between the major parties? You can't assume we'd all go to Clinton. Personally, Clinton was my 2nd choice, but there are other 3rd party voters that would go to Trump.

but we need a scapegoat :(


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