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Libertarian Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Libertarians: Do you support Trump?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:54 pm

Yes
6
21%
No
23
79%
 
Total votes : 29

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The Liberated Territories
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Libertarian Discussion Thread

Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:58 pm

Hello and welcome to the Libertarian Discussion Thread. I've commented on this thread's validity and I believed that we needed one in conjunction with the Right- and Left- wing discussion threads, which do not really address libertarian concerns and arguments, and are unsatisfactory for most people who want to explore libertarianism and libertarian thinking without having to trudge through the other threads, evidenced here.

Because “we” libertarians tend to see ourselves as distinct from the modern right and left, I’ve decided that it would be prudent for a specifically libertarian discussion thread. Topics for discussion may include, the US Libertarian Party, various libertarian parties - some more prominent or successful than others - across the globe, the libertarian ideology, conflicts between libertarians, conflicts between libertarians and other political ideologies, the practical application of libertarianism, Medieval Iceland and other supposedly libertarian societies, "thick" verse "thin" libertarianism, natural rights verse consequentialist arguments, and other various arguments. Note that this thread may also apply to adherents of classical and neo- liberalism, of which there is some overlap, with the main differences being values and philosophy instead of policy per se, and adherents of anarchist ideologies such as agorism, voluntaryism, and even mutualism whose origins also arose out of classical liberalism and like their ancestor still maintain a steadfast commitment to free markets and social liberties, despite some major differences in policy, voting and electoral change, as well as views on property and what constitutes as breach of aggression, and sometimes related but distinct ideologies such as Objectivism which had an influence on modern libertarianism.

Because this thread literally won't float without a topic of discussion, allow me to start with one: Who, out of the three most popular candidates running for the US Libertarian Party presidential spot, do you support? Their juicy details that would make some of the Reps and Dems blush below:

Gary Johnson, who had been the 2012 Libertarian nominee for president, pulled an amazing one million votes last election (the size of a large city!), is fairly popular amongst Libertarians while at the same time managing to be swallowable for the public. Former two-term governor of New Mexico who holds a record for vetoed legislation. Pro-choice, and believes that Jewish bakers should be forced to bake Nazi cakes for Nazis. The most "liberal," out of the candidates, self described "bleeding heart libertarian," but that wasn't enough for him to say back in January that we should ban the burka, although he did quickly rescind it. Climbed Mount Everest because why not.

John McAfee, a cybersecurity expert, a billionaire and "lady's man" (rawr), and has significantly more name recognition than the other candidates, seems to have some sort of personal grudge against Gary Johnson. Was apparently wanted by the government of Belize under suspicionfor committing murder. Seems to take the "middle" position on everything, opining to know what the definition of a drug is before answering whether the drug war should end. If Gary Johnson is the drugged out hippie, this guy is the drug dealer, at least according to Petersen.

Austin Petersen, a thirty-five year old internet troll and the designer of what is probably the most click-baity site on the internet, has no political credentials whatsoever unlike Johnson or the wealth and connections of McAfee. Pro-life, arguably the most "conservative" (libertarian-conservative) of the three, has an interesting economic policy called the "penny plan" in which 1% of spending would be axed from all departments until the US debt is brought under line IIRC. Believes we should enact letters of marque against ISIS instead of boots on the ground in the Middle East, an idea popular amongst some libertarians and also pirates.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend watching the Stossel debates between these three candidates if you want a greater understanding of them, even if it can be cringe inducing at times.

To answer my question, I think Gary Johnson is the best suited for the presidency. First of all, the fact that the other candidates do not have any political credentials worries me greatly, as the presidency is not just any executive office but you are literally running for the helm of what is perhaps one of the strongest countries both militarily and economically in the world, I think that experience should almost be required for running. Finally, Johnson has scored over 11% in some university polls in which last year rarely came above 7%, which I think is a sign that in conjunction with the media time he's gotten over the last several years and the growing amount of people - like generally fiscally conservative establishment Republicans and leftists who dislike Hillary but wouldn't vote for Trump if it comes down between them, he could have the potential to do very well - if not win the presidency, then at least skyrocket the Libertarian Party and other third parties into media attention, bring to light much needed electoral reform and possibly gain the 5% necessary to secure next year's federal funding and ballot access which significantly would significantly free up resources for the Libertarian Party to work off of that.

Edit: Yes I am aware that 6marion9 made another thread, but I found it was rather inadequate to start a discussion and I am amazed that the mods haven’t locked it, furthermore it doesn’t really convey what needed to be said.

Poll Results
Poll 1: Who would you support for the Libertarian Party candidacy? (The Liberated Territories) - 63% Voted Gary Johnson

Poll 2: What type of libertarian are you?

Constitutionalist - 20%
Minarchist - 21%
Anarcho-Capitalist - 8%
Voluntaryist/Agorist - 2%
Egoist/Individualist - 6%
Mutualist - 4%
Georgist - 3%
None of the Above/Not libertarian - 36%

Poll 3: Best Libertarian Ideologue

Murray Rothbard - 4%
Robert Nozick - 22%
Ron Paul - 18%
David D. Friedman - 1%
Hans-Hermann Hoppe - 12%
Milton Friedman - 32%
Roderick T. Long - 1%
Samuel Edward Konkin III - 1%
Walter Block - 1%
Other - 8%

Poll 4: Where do you live?

United States - 56%
Canada - 2%
United Kingdom - 8%
Australia - 8%
France - No votes
Germany - 2%
Spain - No votes
Czech Republic - 2%
Brazil - 2%
some other weird ass place - 19%

Poll 5: What religion do you belong to?
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 45 times in total.

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Anarchist Heathenry
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Postby Anarchist Heathenry » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:03 pm

You could at least have the decency to say "Right-Libertarian Discussion Thread", unless you want to put yourself in the ranks of "Third Positionists".
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Postby Kelinfort » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:04 pm

Johnson, should I vote Libertarian

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Postby The balkens » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:05 pm

Kelinfort wrote:Johnson, should I vote Libertarian


i agree.

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:06 pm

Anarchist Heathenry wrote:You could at least have the decency to say "Right-Libertarian Discussion Thread", unless you want to put yourself in the ranks of "Third Positionists".


Why split the labels when there is only one true type of libertarian? ;)

Besides, if you were as quick to read the OP as to post, you'd realize I also invited "left" libertarians, although I am focusing on libertarians of the market liking variety since communism and socialism can be more adequately by the Left Wing discussion thread, and because we are more numerous.

Kelinfort wrote:Johnson, should I vote Libertarian


Why though, what makes him so special? Why not vote for one of the major parties due to the "lesser evil" factor?
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Venedocia
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Postby Venedocia » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:09 pm

I got recruited here :d
Laters.

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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:38 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Anarchist Heathenry wrote:You could at least have the decency to say "Right-Libertarian Discussion Thread", unless you want to put yourself in the ranks of "Third Positionists".


Why split the labels when there is only one true type of libertarian? ;)

Besides, if you were as quick to read the OP as to post, you'd realize I also invited "left" libertarians, although I am focusing on libertarians of the market liking variety since communism and socialism can be more adequately by the Left Wing discussion thread, and because we are more numerous.

Kelinfort wrote:Johnson, should I vote Libertarian


Why though, what makes him so special? Why not vote for one of the major parties due to the "lesser evil" factor?

I vote for my preferred candidate, not a so called "lesser" evil.

Bernie Sanders is a far lesser evil than Donald Trump. I won't vote for him out of that kind of lesser evil nonsense. The only exception I make is if Trump and he are close, and my vote could prevent a President Trump.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:42 pm

I'd vote for any of the three really, especially Petersen because he has motherfuckin' class :p

Ideally though, Johnson. I might not agree with every single thing he says but he does have political experience and he's been around the block so to speak.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:59 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Why split the labels when there is only one true type of libertarian? ;)

Besides, if you were as quick to read the OP as to post, you'd realize I also invited "left" libertarians, although I am focusing on libertarians of the market liking variety since communism and socialism can be more adequately by the Left Wing discussion thread, and because we are more numerous.



Why though, what makes him so special? Why not vote for one of the major parties due to the "lesser evil" factor?

I vote for my preferred candidate, not a so called "lesser" evil.

Bernie Sanders is a far lesser evil than Donald Trump. I won't vote for him out of that kind of lesser evil nonsense. The only exception I make is if Trump and he are close, and my vote could prevent a President Trump.


How close are we expecting? Several percentage points? A few thousand votes?

(I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I think this is a good debate.)

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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:02 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:I vote for my preferred candidate, not a so called "lesser" evil.

Bernie Sanders is a far lesser evil than Donald Trump. I won't vote for him out of that kind of lesser evil nonsense. The only exception I make is if Trump and he are close, and my vote could prevent a President Trump.


How close are we expecting? Several percentage points? A few thousand votes?

(I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I think this is a good debate.)

Tied or polls in Trump's favor.

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Greater Istanistan
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Postby Greater Istanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:24 pm

I'm personally a fan of libertarian social policy. As such, I'd probably end up voting for Gary Johnston over Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. The former is a war hawk and the latter a probable disaster if he actually won. By voting Libertarian, I'd be able to push that "third alternative", although I still prefer the Greens as they have a solid social platform plus the economics I prefer.

Do you think the libertarians will do well, riding a wave of disaffected anti-establishment voters from the Democrats once Sanders gives up the ghost? Or will they just go Green?
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:27 pm

The only libertarian candidate I would even consider voting for would be Peterson, and that's only if Trump wins the republican primary and Copeland the constitutionalist one.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:30 pm

Greater Istanistan wrote:I'm personally a fan of libertarian social policy. As such, I'd probably end up voting for Gary Johnston over Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. The former is a war hawk and the latter a probable disaster if he actually won. By voting Libertarian, I'd be able to push that "third alternative", although I still prefer the Greens as they have a solid social platform plus the economics I prefer.

Do you think the libertarians will do well, riding a wave of disaffected anti-establishment voters from the Democrats once Sanders gives up the ghost? Or will they just go Green?


I've been trying to do my part to sway people who don't want to vote for Hillary towards the Libertarian camp. I'd really prefer they don't go Green because I do think the LP could do very well this year and I'd like to see the two party system have a wrench thrown into it.
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Postby Nationalist Gold Union » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:32 pm

I find myself struggling to like Johnson more every day. I dunno, he just seems always blazed as sh*t and I honestly don't think he would be an effective president.
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Postby Greater Istanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:32 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've been trying to do my part to sway people who don't want to vote for Hillary towards the Libertarian camp. I'd really prefer they don't go Green because I do think the LP could do very well this year and I'd like to see the two party system have a wrench thrown into it.


I'm a Canuck, so we don't have the precise problem of a two-party system. It would definitely be good to have a third alternative within American politics. Although I don't agree with a lot of things libertarianism stands for, I still find it a shame that so many libertarians think that the Republican Party is a good home for them. If they stayed out, then maybe their Party would be able to seriously contest elections.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:34 pm

Diopolis wrote:The only libertarian candidate I would even consider voting for would be Peterson, and that's only if Trump wins the republican primary and Copeland the constitutionalist one.


Eugh, Petersen is the worse out of the bunch. But if you want to support a man that makes sexist tweets and says such zingers as "I'm motherfuckin' class." go for it. Still would be a better candidate than Trump.

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:40 pm

Greater Istanistan wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've been trying to do my part to sway people who don't want to vote for Hillary towards the Libertarian camp. I'd really prefer they don't go Green because I do think the LP could do very well this year and I'd like to see the two party system have a wrench thrown into it.


I'm a Canuck, so we don't have the precise problem of a two-party system. It would definitely be good to have a third alternative within American politics. Although I don't agree with a lot of things libertarianism stands for, I still find it a shame that so many libertarians think that the Republican Party is a good home for them. If they stayed out, then maybe their Party would be able to seriously contest elections.


Canada may be headed down that road, at least for Federal Elections. The Anyone But Conservative crowd however might keep Canada from swinging back and forth from Liberal to Conservative. Finally, Canada still uses a form of FPTP and the sheer dominance of the Liberal Party in Canada forced it's opponents to unite with them or against them, depending on their political affiliations. Mind you the Conservatives weren't a united forced to be reckoned with until recently.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:40 pm

Greater Istanistan wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've been trying to do my part to sway people who don't want to vote for Hillary towards the Libertarian camp. I'd really prefer they don't go Green because I do think the LP could do very well this year and I'd like to see the two party system have a wrench thrown into it.


I'm a Canuck, so we don't have the precise problem of a two-party system. It would definitely be good to have a third alternative within American politics. Although I don't agree with a lot of things libertarianism stands for, I still find it a shame that so many libertarians think that the Republican Party is a good home for them. If they stayed out, then maybe their Party would be able to seriously contest elections.


It's largely because people have the mentality that voting third party is and always will be a waste, I've been dealing with that a lot lately when I'm trying to convince people to take a look at the candidates.
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Postby Nearly Finland » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:41 pm

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP

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Postby 6Marion9 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:45 pm

Well how rood tbh
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:47 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Greater Istanistan wrote:
I'm a Canuck, so we don't have the precise problem of a two-party system. It would definitely be good to have a third alternative within American politics. Although I don't agree with a lot of things libertarianism stands for, I still find it a shame that so many libertarians think that the Republican Party is a good home for them. If they stayed out, then maybe their Party would be able to seriously contest elections.


It's largely because people have the mentality that voting third party is and always will be a waste, I've been dealing with that a lot lately when I'm trying to convince people to take a look at the candidates.


The whole system needs to go, but voting for the current two parties won't fix it. Ise that line of reasoning. Only third parties I trust will significantly revamp the electoral system, if we can get an amendment to the constitution.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:55 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
It's largely because people have the mentality that voting third party is and always will be a waste, I've been dealing with that a lot lately when I'm trying to convince people to take a look at the candidates.


The whole system needs to go, but voting for the current two parties won't fix it. Ise that line of reasoning. Only third parties I trust will significantly revamp the electoral system, if we can get an amendment to the constitution.


That's what I try to tell people, everyone complains about the system but won't do anything to try and fix it. It's mind boggling.

Does anyone happen to know what happened to that Green/Libertarian lawsuit for equal debate access?
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Postby Greater Istanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:58 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Canada may be headed down that road, at least for Federal Elections. The Anyone But Conservative crowd however might keep Canada from swinging back and forth from Liberal to Conservative. Finally, Canada still uses a form of FPTP and the sheer dominance of the Liberal Party in Canada forced it's opponents to unite with them or against them, depending on their political affiliations. Mind you the Conservatives weren't a united forced to be reckoned with until recently.


I doubt that, actually. The New Democrats had a good shot at our government last time, and if the oncoming electoral reform turns into a battle and the Liberals continue to fail their promises we may yet see more New Democrat power. Furthermore, I would personally argue that in Canada the regional governments are what matter the most, and the NDP has remained highly competitive within them. They're set up for a good run next time around in Ontario, seeing how they've got an exceptionally stale gang of Liberals on one side and the frankly revolting ProgCons on the other. Alberta was a big win. Even though they lost Manitoba, they're still a strong force in BC and have an OK record in the Maritimes. Overall, they're a plausible and strong third option.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
It's largely because people have the mentality that voting third party is and always will be a waste, I've been dealing with that a lot lately when I'm trying to convince people to take a look at the candidates.


I feel as though the Libertarians really need wins at the state level - Representatives, Senators, and even a Governor - if they want to be considered. It's a stepping-stone approach, and building upwards from below provides a solid platform. That being said, if this Presidential run goes well I could see parties like the Greens and Libertarians picking up a lot of support and attention. Although one can't get too hopeful - Jill Stein was illegally detained for trying to participate in a debate...
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:59 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
The whole system needs to go, but voting for the current two parties won't fix it. Ise that line of reasoning. Only third parties I trust will significantly revamp the electoral system, if we can get an amendment to the constitution.


That's what I try to tell people, everyone complains about the system but won't do anything to try and fix it. It's mind boggling.

Does anyone happen to know what happened to that Green/Libertarian lawsuit for equal debate access?


No idea. Seems stalled for some reason. I do recall a recent victory in getting Oklahoma, which means if things go right this year it's possible for the Libertarians and Greens to secure their place all necessary states.

http://ballot-access.org/

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:06 pm

Greater Istanistan wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
It's largely because people have the mentality that voting third party is and always will be a waste, I've been dealing with that a lot lately when I'm trying to convince people to take a look at the candidates.


I feel as though the Libertarians really need wins at the state level - Representatives, Senators, and even a Governor - if they want to be considered. It's a stepping-stone approach, and building upwards from below provides a solid platform. That being said, if this Presidential run goes well I could see parties like the Greens and Libertarians picking up a lot of support and attention. Although one can't get too hopeful - Jill Stein was illegally detained for trying to participate in a debate...


There have been a few Libertarian governors, not sure about Reps and Senators because I'm still fairly new to libertarianism. It's just the way our presidential elections work that fucks third parties.

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That's what I try to tell people, everyone complains about the system but won't do anything to try and fix it. It's mind boggling.

Does anyone happen to know what happened to that Green/Libertarian lawsuit for equal debate access?


No idea. Seems stalled for some reason. I do recall a recent victory in getting Oklahoma, which means if things go right this year it's possible for the Libertarians and Greens to secure their place all necessary states.

http://ballot-access.org/


IIRC the LP is on most states ballots this year, my state isn't one of them so far so but hopefully that'll change.
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