Is fascism a negative thing?

[The Grey Wolf]

"We deny your internationalism, because it is a luxury which only the upper classes can afford; the working people are hopelessly bound to their native shores."

Benito was quite the inconsistent character throughout his years.

In regards to Anti-Semitism and racism, perhaps.

But in this regard, not anymore than anyone else who changes ideologies.

[Sanctissima]

Benito was quite the inconsistent character throughout his years.

In regards to Anti-Semitism and racism, perhaps.

But in this regard, not anymore than anyone else who changes ideologies.

Eh, yes and no. Communism to Fascism was quite the major flip.

[The Grey Wolf]

In regards to Anti-Semitism and racism, perhaps.

But in this regard, not anymore than anyone else who changes ideologies.

Eh, yes and no. Communism to Fascism was quite the major flip.

At it's beginning, the Fascist movement was national syndicalist. It wasn't a sudden switch as much as a gradual development.

[Agritum]

Benito was quite the inconsistent character throughout his years.

In regards to Anti-Semitism and racism, perhaps.

But in this regard, not anymore than anyone else who changes ideologies.

He was pretty flip floppy even for Italian standards. The seeds of it could be already seen when he wildly danced around interventionism and non-interventionism back during WW1 (he was still socialist at the time).

[The Grey Wolf]

In regards to Anti-Semitism and racism, perhaps.

But in this regard, not anymore than anyone else who changes ideologies.

He was pretty flip floppy even for Italian standards. The seeds of it could be already seen when he wildly danced around interventionism and non-interventionism back during WW1 (he was still socialist at the time).

It was a pretty complex and controversial issue, as seen by the fact he ended up thrown out of the socialist party because of it.

Though his reasons for intervention were entirely sound even for socialist standards, might I add.

[Sanctissima]

Eh, yes and no. Communism to Fascism was quite the major flip.

At it's beginning, the Fascist movement was national syndicalist. It wasn't a sudden switch as much as a gradual development.

I suppose, but the gradual development didn't take terribly long in the grand scheme of things to reach the other end of the spectrum. And even then, on an individual level Mussolini had pretty much abandoned his Communist beliefs by the mid-1920's.

[The Grey Wolf]

At it's beginning, the Fascist movement was national syndicalist. It wasn't a sudden switch as much as a gradual development.

I suppose, but the gradual development didn't take terribly long in the grand scheme of things to reach the other end of the spectrum. And even then, on an individual level Mussolini had pretty much abandoned his Communist beliefs by the mid-1920's.

He was already pretty unusual for a Communist before he was expelled from the party. Given the influence of Nietzsche, Gentile, and other more hierarchical, spiritualistic philosophers.

[Jochistan]

Personally I prefer ethnic nationalism. Having pride in the traditions and culture of your people, as well as your shared origins and history together, as both individuals in a community, and as a community of individuals. Such things should be celebrated, promoted, and an area for people to feel proud of, and have a sense of belonging in. ^u^

See, I think the pride of being in a minority, ir at least an oppressed one, is that you have fought against prejudices/discrimination/hatred etc and you should be proud that you have withstood that

So it's okay to be proud of your heritage only if it was severely on the losing side of something, or because it's perceived to be oppressed by cultural relativists.

What the hell.

[The Grey Wolf]

See, I think the pride of being in a minority, ir at least an oppressed one, is that you have fought against prejudices/discrimination/hatred etc and you should be proud that you have withstood that

So it's okay to be proud of your heritage only if it was severely on the losing side of something, or because it's perceived to be oppressed by cultural relativists.

What the hell.

So by Val Halla's standards, Fascist nationalists were right to be proud of being Italian, because Italy was an underdog (one who's territories were still under the oppression of the Hapsburg's?)

[Sanctissima]

I suppose, but the gradual development didn't take terribly long in the grand scheme of things to reach the other end of the spectrum. And even then, on an individual level Mussolini had pretty much abandoned his Communist beliefs by the mid-1920's.

He was already pretty unusual for a Communist before he was expelled from the party. Given the influence of Nietzsche, Gentile, and other more hierarchical, spiritualistic philosophers.

Fair enough.

To be honest, I've never really understood why he joined the Socialists in the first place. His ideas and influences were all pretty... unique, prior to joining.

[The Grey Wolf]

He was already pretty unusual for a Communist before he was expelled from the party. Given the influence of Nietzsche, Gentile, and other more hierarchical, spiritualistic philosophers.

Fair enough.

To be honest, I've never really understood why he joined the Socialists in the first place. His ideas and influences were all pretty... unique, prior to joining.

Probably because, for all intents and purposes, he was a socialist. Albeit one with unusual influences. I'm not really sure what marked his transition from outspoken materialism to metaphysical Neo-Hegelian idealism. It might have been Giovanni Gentile, but I'm not sure.

[Sanctissima]

Fair enough.

To be honest, I've never really understood why he joined the Socialists in the first place. His ideas and influences were all pretty... unique, prior to joining.

Probably because, for all intents and purposes, he was a socialist. Albeit one with unusual influences. I'm not really sure what marked his transition from outspoken materialism to metaphysical Neo-Hegelian idealism. It might have been Giovanni Gentile, but I'm not sure.

I guess so, but it's just odd considering his parents' influences on him and everything else that occurred in his life prior to becoming a Socialist. At the time, it was a bit odd for someone with ardent nationalist leanings to join his local Socialist Party.

[The Grey Wolf]

Probably because, for all intents and purposes, he was a socialist. Albeit one with unusual influences. I'm not really sure what marked his transition from outspoken materialism to metaphysical Neo-Hegelian idealism. It might have been Giovanni Gentile, but I'm not sure.

I guess so, but it's just odd considering his parents' influences on him and everything else that occurred in his life prior to becoming a Socialist. At the time, it was a bit odd for someone with ardent nationalist leanings to join his local Socialist Party.

His father was a socialist who raised him to have a disrespect for authorities. Up until the 1910's, I don't believe he was a nationalist.

[Agritum]

So it's okay to be proud of your heritage only if it was severely on the losing side of something, or because it's perceived to be oppressed by cultural relativists.

What the hell.

So by Val Halla's standards, Fascist nationalists were right to be proud of being Italian, because Italy was an underdog (one who's territories were still under the oppression of the Hapsburg's?)

The Hapsburgs stopped being relevant in Italian irredentism a good four or five years before the Fascists went big, though.

[Jochistan]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

[The Grey Wolf]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

I find it rather humorous that people think Fascism must be racist, when the Falangists held that racial mixing was actually a good thing, and that it was the mixture of races that made a nation strong.

[Jochistan]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

I find it rather humorous that people think Fascism must be racist, when the Falangists held that racial mixing was actually a good thing, and that it was the mixture of races that made a nation strong.

There are exceptions to everything. But that's probably not what modern supporters of Franco think.

And Fascism is very often tied to Racism and xenophobia.

[Agritum]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

I find it rather humorous that people think Fascism must be racist, when the Falangists held that racial mixing was actually a good thing, and that it was the mixture of races that made a nation strong.

I'm pretty sure (in the sense that, yes, I've actually met them) there's people who don't think of Falangists as true fascists because "they were too much tied to the Church".

That said they had their fair share of abuse on linguistic minorities. Just look at the Euskadi.

[The Grey Wolf]

I find it rather humorous that people think Fascism must be racist, when the Falangists held that racial mixing was actually a good thing, and that it was the mixture of races that made a nation strong.

I'm pretty sure (in the sense that, yes, I've actually met them) there's people who don't think of Falangists as true fascists because "they were too much tied to the Church".

That said they had their fair share of abuse on linguistic minorities. Just look at the Euskadi.

There were numerous Fascist movements who were tied to the Church, even the Italian variety ended up this way due to the Lateran Pacts for the most part. But it fits the definition of Fascism regardless (a revolutionary, anti-liberal, corporatist/national syndicalist, totalitarian one-party statist ideology).

I'm not denying that they were hard on the Basques (given the conservative, pro-business region ended up supporting the Republicans), but their reasons were certainly not based on race. They weren't asserting that the Basques were an inferior race who needed to be killed or enslaved (but I might be wrong).

[Agritum]

I'm pretty sure (in the sense that, yes, I've actually met them) there's people who don't think of Falangists as true fascists because "they were too much tied to the Church".

That said they had their fair share of abuse on linguistic minorities. Just look at the Euskadi.

There were numerous Fascist movements who were tied to the Church, even the Italian variety ended up this way due to the Lateran Pacts for the most part. But it fits the definition of Fascism regardless (a revolutionary, anti-liberal, corporatist/national syndicalist, totalitarian one-party statist ideology).

I'm not denying that they were hard on the Basques (given the conservative, pro-business region ended up supporting the Republicans), but their reasons were certainly not based on race. They weren't asserting that the Basques were an inferior race who needed to be killed or enslaved (but I might be wrong).

They banned their language and culture.

[Ledaziemia]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

Actually, during Portugal's Fascist reign, the Estado Novo, most racist and anti-Semitic views weren't widespread like in other nations, democratic or communist.

[Jochistan]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

Actually, during Portugal's Fascist reign, the Estado Novo, most racist and anti-Semitic views weren't widespread like in other nations, democratic or communist.

Source?

Even if that is true practically none of the modern "fascists" support anything of the sort. The ones that do can probably be counted on fingers.

[The Greater Aryan Race]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

Actually, during Portugal's Fascist reign, the Estado Novo, most racist and anti-Semitic views weren't widespread like in other nations, democratic or communist.

Estado Novo was not fascist. It lacked that drive towards expansionism and revolutionary forceful dictatorship that characterised Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany.

[The Grey Wolf]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

Actually, during Portugal's Fascist reign, the Estado Novo, most racist and anti-Semitic views weren't widespread like in other nations, democratic or communist.

The Portugese regime was authoritarian and corporatist, but that does not make it Fascist. Else numerous countries before the French Revolution would be labeled 'fascist.'

[Prussia-Steinbach]

But I would say Fascism is usually horrible. Since it's always tied to (legitimate) racism, xenophobia and extreme authoritarianism.

I find it rather humorous that people think Fascism must be racist, when the Falangists held that racial mixing was actually a good thing, and that it was the mixture of races that made a nation strong.

Falangism and Francoism wasn't fascist by the time it gained traction. It was just capitalism, nationalism, and authoritarianism. The only qualifiably Fascist state was Italy.

And fascism need not be racist, but it needs must be xenophobic and ultra-nationalist, which understandably leads to racism.