Left-Wing Discussion Thread

[Kilobugya]

Is there a real difference between a commune and state?

A commune is supposed to be smaller in scale - more like the size of a city. It's also supposed to have a different organization, a much more "direct democracy" and much less "top-down" organization (in part made easier by the scale). But then the exact meaning of words like "commune" and "state" will vary from place to place, time to time, and ideology to ideology so it's hard to pinpoint exactly where it stops being a state and starts being a commune.

[The New Sea Territory]

Is there a real difference between a commune and state?

States are functionally instruments of class rule. In a more descriptive sense, they are legitimized monopolies on the use of force. A commune would likely have neither of these, although it could hypothetically have the latter.

[Yoshida (Ancient)]

Is there a real difference between a commune and state?

This is why I'm dubious about identifying as an anarchist.

Catalonia, one of the most cited examples of anarchism, seemed as much a state as Russia, Germany, or Britain. There were laws, sometimes over minor things (Orwell wrote that tipping was illegal). There was coercion, with people being physically persuaded into joining. It had the authority to raise an army. There doesn't seem to be anything different from a state. It may not be the old feudal or nation-state, but it has all the characteristics of one.

What's the point of referring to ourselves as "anarchist" then, especially when that word has often given people the wrong impression about it?

[Bakery Hill]

This is why I'm dubious about identifying as an anarchist.

Catalonia, one of the most cited examples of anarchism, seemed as much a state as Russia, Germany, or Britain. There were laws, sometimes over minor things (Orwell wrote that tipping was illegal). There was coercion, with people being physically persuaded into joining. It had the authority to raise an army. There doesn't seem to be anything different from a state. It may not be the old feudal or nation-state, but it has all the characteristics of one.

What's the point of referring to ourselves as "anarchist" then, especially when that word has often given people the wrong impression about it?

In studying Catalonia I departed from anarchism, The CNT-FAI ran labour camps for instance. Look at what another anarcho hero, Makhno, did in the Ukraine. It was a bit jarring, but soon I realised there was a reason why every revolution went a little bit fucked, because revolution is fucked. It's an immensely traumatic experience that most ordinary people only gravitate towards as a last resort, it's a fight to the death and you do whatever you need to win. And yeah, the other point is everyone thinks you're either a terrorist or some edgy bourgeois wanker. That's why I'd describe myself as a socialist with libertarian leanings and sympathies.

[Bakery Hill]

Is there a real difference between a commune and state?

States are functionally instruments of class rule. In a more descriptive sense, they are legitimized monopolies on the use of force. A commune would likely have neither of these, although it could hypothetically have the latter.

I don't seek how a commune could work without the latter.

[The New Sea Territory]

States are functionally instruments of class rule. In a more descriptive sense, they are legitimized monopolies on the use of force. A commune would likely have neither of these, although it could hypothetically have the latter.

I don't seek how a commune could work without the latter.

A "monopoly", especially in the sense Weber uses that term, should be understood as a sort of bureaucracy or structure. It is safe to imagine Weber as the sociological counterpart to Kafka. A commune wouldn't have this structure or bureaucracy, due to its decentralized nature.

This doesn't mean there isn't violence, but that violence isn't structural or condensed into one group or organization. In that sense, you could say Catalonia had a state (for a certain portion of the war).

[The Liberated Territories]

Stealing from the communes grain reserves? Automatic gulag!

[Bakery Hill]

I don't seek how a commune could work without the latter.

A "monopoly", especially in the sense Weber uses that term, should be understood as a sort of bureaucracy or structure. It is safe to imagine Weber as the sociological counterpart to Kafka. A commune wouldn't have this structure or bureaucracy, due to its decentralized nature.

This doesn't mean there isn't violence, but that violence isn't structural or condensed into one group or organization. In that sense, you could say Catalonia had a state (for a certain portion of the war).

But even if the whole commune is involved in its running and organisation, surely the commune becomes just an extremely inclusive or even large state?

[Bakery Hill]

Stealing from the communes grain reserves? Automatic gulag!

In Zapatista territory you're usually punished by being made to perform difficult or annoying labour.

[Community Values]

Stealing from the communes grain reserves? Automatic gulag!

Why only grain? Let's go big. Let's steal the one semi-conductor that our commune painstakingly built in a three year span.

[The Liberated Territories]

Stealing from the communes grain reserves? Automatic gulag!

In Zapatista territory you're usually punished by being made to perform difficult or annoying labour.

Damn, ill take being taxed at 20% any day over that.

[Bakery Hill]

Stealing from the communes grain reserves? Automatic gulag!

Why only grain? Let's go big. Let's steal the one semi-conductor that our commune painstakingly built in a three year span.

Why would your commune work alone?

[Bakery Hill]

In Zapatista territory you're usually punished by being made to perform difficult or annoying labour.

Damn, ill take being taxed at 20% any day over that.

Better than jail time in my books.

[Community Values]

Why only grain? Let's go big. Let's steal the one semi-conductor that our commune painstakingly built in a three year span.

Why would your commune work alone?

Do communes usually work together?

[Bakery Hill]

Why would your commune work alone?

Do communes usually work together?

They have to if they want to remain viable in the long run, otherwise they're just making shit hard for themselves. They worked together during the Spanish Civil War for three years for instance.

[Community Values]

Do communes usually work together?

They have to if they want to remain viable in the long run, otherwise they're just making shit hard for themselves. They worked together during the Spanish Civil War for three years for instance.

I guess I could adjust my answer then. A bunch of communes made the parts to make the semi conductor, our commune just made the semi conductor. Would that be how they worked?

[The Liberated Territories]

Why would your commune work alone?

Do communes usually work together?

Yes, of course! Hold up, let me call the nearest commune and ask if they are low on food, since we have no other way of knowing how.

[Bakery Hill]

They have to if they want to remain viable in the long run, otherwise they're just making shit hard for themselves. They worked together during the Spanish Civil War for three years for instance.

I guess I could adjust my answer then. A bunch of communes made the parts to make the semi conductor, our commune just made the semi conductor. Would that be how they worked?

I mean depending on the size of the commune it could have multiple semi-conductor factories. Anarcho-syndicalism is based around industrial workplace organising.

[Bakery Hill]

Do communes usually work together?

Yes, of course! Hold up, let me call the nearest commune and ask if they are low on food, since we have no other way of knowing how.

What?

[The Liberated Territories]

Yes, of course! Hold up, let me call the nearest commune and ask if they are low on food, since we have no other way of knowing how.

What?

Price signals, man, price signals! You need information to judge demand, without this information you are likely doing a guessing game in redistribution of finite goods.

[Conscentia]

Is there a real difference between a commune and state?

Depends on how you define "state".

In Marxist usage, the "state" refers to institutions of organised violence that maintain the conditions under which the ruling class rule. It is only in a society which is divided between classes that the state exists. Classes are defined by their distinctive characteristic relations of production. Common ownership abolishes these distinctions, thereby abolishing class rule and thus also the state. A commune is an executive and legislative institution operating by delegative democracy, as opposed to representative democracy, by which classless society would govern itself. From a Marxist perspective, the commune is an instrument of collective self-governance, and not a instrument of class rule thus not a state.

However, there are other definitions of state such as Max Weber's which define "state" more broadly. According to these definitions, a commune may constitute a state.

[Community Values]

I guess I could adjust my answer then. A bunch of communes made the parts to make the semi conductor, our commune just made the semi conductor. Would that be how they worked?

I mean depending on the size of the commune it could have multiple semi-conductor factories. Anarcho-syndicalism is based around industrial workplace organising.

Then what happens to the agricultural peasants? Mao is rolling in his grave, ya know.

[The New Sea Territory]

A "monopoly", especially in the sense Weber uses that term, should be understood as a sort of bureaucracy or structure. It is safe to imagine Weber as the sociological counterpart to Kafka. A commune wouldn't have this structure or bureaucracy, due to its decentralized nature.

This doesn't mean there isn't violence, but that violence isn't structural or condensed into one group or organization. In that sense, you could say Catalonia had a state (for a certain portion of the war).

But even if the whole commune is involved in its running and organisation, surely the commune becomes just an extremely inclusive or even large state?

You're not wrong. Everyone becomes the state....but by making everyone the state, there is no monopolization, and no class rule. The definition of state breaks down.

[The New Sea Territory]

What?

Price signals, man, price signals! You need information to judge demand, without this information you are likely doing a guessing game in redistribution of finite goods.

Price signals don't effectively judge demand if we still overproduce and underproduce certain goods.

[The Liberated Territories]

Price signals, man, price signals! You need information to judge demand, without this information you are likely doing a guessing game in redistribution of finite goods.

Price signals don't effectively judge demand if we still overproduce and underproduce certain goods.

Yet it gives you the information necessary then not to make the same mistake in the future. Demand cannot always be properly measured, but the signals given off by consumer purchases give us a more accurate understanding of it.

What I am curious is how without markets, a collectivized factory in Singapore will accurately obtain information on say, how many chairs to produce monthly for Bangladeshis. Census takers, perhaps?