The Real Core of the Republican Party

[Free Soviets]

the other thread was locked for ridiculousness, but seriously, this is a very important issue. so i'm posting it again.

kos commissioned a poll through research 2000 - a widely respected non-partisan pollster who has done excellent work for years with a large number of clients. the poll asked a massive sample of self-identified republicans about a variety of issues. the full crosstabs can be found here:
http://www.dailykos.com/statepoll/2010/1/31/US/437

and the findings are scary as fuck. a mere 24% of republicans think ACORN didn't steal the 2008 election (this actually represents something of an improvement over PPP's poling on the subject a few months back, as fewer people are sure that ACORN did steal it, but vastly more are unsure if they did or not). only 36% of republicans think obama isn't a whitey-hating racist. 73% think gay people shouldn't be allowed to teach in schools.

for no particular reason, 39% think obama should be impeached and a further 29% are open to the idea. well, maybe not no reason. perhaps because 58% think there is some question as to whether obama was born in the united states. or maybe because 57% think he might want the terrorists to win. and they are absolutely sure he's a socialist (63%), so maybe that's taken to be an impeachable offense?

in short, these people have totally lost their grip on reality. not just in that they have a slightly different worldview that looks crazy to me, but in a fundamental disconnect sort of way.

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

[Sarkhaan]

I'm interested in the reasoning behind these opinions...particularly the impeachment one. I'm wondering if it comes from misinformation about Obama, lack of knowledge of what "impeachment" is and what would justify it, a combination of both, or an issue I'm just not seeing.

I'd also be interested to see how the party would split, were a divide to occur. The Republican party cannot continue as it stands...there are, contrary to popular belief, still some rational members. I can see those members fleeing the party if it continues as is.

I believe that much of it comes back to education (this should not be surprising to anyone on here...haha). There is something seriously wrong with critical thinking skills and teaching people to ask the basic question of "how do I know what I know?".

[Maurepas]

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

1) It has always been this way, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing, it lost some support as a base on its own due to the Civil War, but, since the Civil Rights movement they've basically re-found their common ground...

2) We need a Third-Party, or a reorganized Democratic Party, basically, Progressives with Balls...Where every member speaks like Obama did at the recent GOP rally all the time, and doesnt stab eachother in the back...

[Peddieville]

I'm interested in the reasoning behind these opinions...particularly the impeachment one. I'm wondering if it comes from misinformation about Obama, lack of knowledge of what "impeachment" is and what would justify it, a combination of both, or an issue I'm just not seeing.

I'd also be interested to see how the party would split, were a divide to occur. The Republican party cannot continue as it stands...there are, contrary to popular belief, still some rational members. I can see those members fleeing the party if it continues as is.

I believe that much of it comes back to education (this should not be surprising to anyone on here...haha). There is something seriously wrong with critical thinking skills and teaching people to ask the basic question of "how do I know what I know?".

Yeah a lot of the party is just a populist movement with no rationality behind it. There are some sane people, but they're silenced. Look at the proposed "purity test." There's no room for independant thought. Not that there is a ton more on the Democratic side, but at least there's some.

[Free Soviets]

to answer one of my own questions (copied from the other thread);

i assume they were never all that well-grounded to begin with. and then we created social space where they rarely have to interact with reality - they've not only got their own 'information' sources that spread lies and propaganda, they've got their own communities full of people just like them. all they've got is their own crazy echoing back at them all day every day.

earlier in time, these sorts of conspiracy-mongering echo chambers were mitigated by the centralized nature of media, with fringe stuff being both harder to get and necessarily smaller in scale. the birchers didn't have fox news and limbaugh and the wingnut welfare book club and the entire network of 'think tanks' to spread the word. they had paper-based newsletters and weekly meetings.

[Peddieville]

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

1) It has always been this way, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing, it lost some support as a base on its own due to the Civil War, but, since the Civil Rights movement they've basically re-found their common ground...

2) We need a Third-Party, or a reorganized Democratic Party, basically, Progressives with Balls...Where every member speaks like Obama did at the recent GOP rally all the time, and doesnt stab eachother in the back...

Obama was fantastic. Why can't he be like this all the time?

[Maurepas]

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

1) It has always been this way, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing, it lost some support as a base on its own due to the Civil War, but, since the Civil Rights movement they've basically re-found their common ground...

2) We need a Third-Party, or a reorganized Democratic Party, basically, Progressives with Balls...Where every member speaks like Obama did at the recent GOP rally all the time, and doesnt stab eachother in the back...

Obama was fantastic. Why can't he be like this all the time?

Seriously though, these guys were like their Victorian twins...

The platform of the American Party called for, among other things:

* Severe limits on immigration, especially from Catholic countries
* Restricting political office to native-born Americans
* Mandating a wait of 21 years before an immigrant could gain citizenship
* Restricting public school teachers to Protestants
* Mandating daily Bible readings in public schools
* Restricting the sale of liquor

Add in anti-Socializm, and you've got it whipped,

[Caninope]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

[South Lorenya]

While there are some downright moronic conservatives, I'd like to point out that a mere 21% think that acorn DID steal the election; a whopping 55% of the voters were undecided. As for the other questions, in msot of them a good 20-30% were undecided (copmpared to the standard 2-3%), and once again, this is a poll of republicans -- which, as of 2009, are less than one third of the US population.

--your friendly liberal Dragon

Oh, and here's the divisions they used.

[The_pantless_hero]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

So the argument is old Republicans are complete fucking crackpots? Hurray, Republican voters are majority crackpots! Old people are the most likely to actually vote.

[Free Soviets]

It has always been this way, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing, it lost some support as a base on its own due to the Civil War, but, since the Civil Rights movement they've basically re-found their common ground...

the know-nothings hated immigrants, sure, but were they really this far gone from consensus reality? and even if they were, they never had the power of the current republican party, so there is an issue of scale and scope too.

[Barringtonia]

Just in response, what are the loony left beliefs that counter this, I can hardly believe there isn't a mirror to these beliefs but I've a hard time figuring out what they are.

[Caninope]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

So the argument is old Republicans are complete fucking crackpots? Hurray, Republican voters are majority crackpots! Old people are the most likely to actually vote.

That and the fact that the plurality (if not majority) of Americans are independents, most don't answer those polls, and it would seem that this poll catered to the crazy faction.

[South Lorenya]

Just in response, what are the loony left beliefs that counter this, I can hardly believe there isn't a mirror to these beliefs but I've a hard time figuring out what they are.

I think that bush was a horrible politician, I think that gays and women should have the same rights as straights and males, I think that religion should have to pay taxes just like other businesses, I keep pointing out that there's much more proof for evolution than creationism... according to Fred Phelps, I'm a horribly evil freak of nature.

[Takaram]

Just in response, what are the loony left beliefs that counter this, I can hardly believe there isn't a mirror to these beliefs but I've a hard time figuring out what they are.

I think that bush was a horrible politician, I think that gays and women should have the same rights as straights and males, I think that religion should have to pay taxes just like other businesses, I keep pointing out that there's much more proof for evolution than creationism... according to Fred Phelps, I'm a horribly evil freak of nature.

Hey,it beats being a God-hated, butt-fucking, Satan-spawn fag.

[Maurepas]

It has always been this way, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing, it lost some support as a base on its own due to the Civil War, but, since the Civil Rights movement they've basically re-found their common ground...

the know-nothings hated immigrants, sure, but were they really this far gone from consensus reality? and even if they were, they never had the power of the current republican party, so there is an issue of scale and scope too.

I think its close, they both had about a third voter support, it just so happened that there were multiple parties back then, so independents had an option to turn to that was less crazy, yet still "conservative"...

[Muravyets]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

Why? Because only liars, crazy people, and crazy liars use landlines?

I realize you mean that they didn't get the younger Republicans who use cellphones and who we can only hope are both sane and willing to speak the truth. But the Republican Party is still dominated by its older members who set the tone of the party's platform, so I'm afraid including the younger ones would not change the fact that the rhetoric coming out of the party leadership echoes these scary poll results.

[The_pantless_hero]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

So the argument is old Republicans are complete fucking crackpots? Hurray, Republican voters are majority crackpots! Old people are the most likely to actually vote.

That and the fact that the plurality (if not majority) of Americans are independents, most don't answer those polls, and it would seem that this poll catered to the crazy faction.

That there is an "independent" faction of Americans is an illusion created by the two parties. The majority of Americans are not independent because if they were, then they could overcome even the heavily tilted two-party system. Which rarely happens, even at local levels.

[United Nukia]

There are few good political parties in the world. The Republicans are one of them.

[JJ Place]

the other thread was locked for ridiculousness, but seriously, this is a very important issue. so i'm posting it again.

kos commissioned a poll through research 2000 - a widely respected non-partisan pollster who has done excellent work for years with a large number of clients. the poll asked a massive sample of self-identified republicans about a variety of issues. the full crosstabs can be found here:
http://www.dailykos.com/statepoll/2010/1/31/US/437

and the findings are scary as fuck. a mere 24% of republicans think ACORN didn't steal the 2008 election (this actually represents something of an improvement over PPP's poling on the subject a few months back, as fewer people are sure that ACORN did steal it, but vastly more are unsure if they did or not). only 36% of republicans think obama isn't a whitey-hating racist. 73% think gay people shouldn't be allowed to teach in schools.

for no particular reason, 39% think obama should be impeached and a further 29% are open to the idea. well, maybe not no reason. perhaps because 58% think there is some question as to whether obama was born in the united states. or maybe because 57% think he might want the terrorists to win. and they are absolutely sure he's a socialist (63%), so maybe that's taken to be an impeachable offense?

in short, these people have totally lost their grip on reality. not just in that they have a slightly different worldview that looks crazy to me, but in a fundamental disconnect sort of way.

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

Polls are in-accurate, and never use-ful. A simple change of questioning can give you a 100% different responce. Case and point:

Question:

Question as writen in style...

A. Do you want babies to be killed?

B. Do you think women should be able to choice anything in they're lives?

C. Do you think abortion should be legal?

And yes, I've seen questions written exactly like this, and I always select the oposite answer than they want, just to screw them up. Polls are biased and are never fair, as such whenever I see one, tend to just look the other direction.

[Free Soviets]

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

if that were true, that might under-sample people under 30. of course, they are a tiny tiny minority among republicans. and even worse, no, it didn't.

Those interviewed were selected by the random variation of the last four digits of telephone numbers, nationally.

you are sort of right in the abstract though - nate silver did a comparison back during the 2008 election that showed that excluding cell phones depressed obama's poll numbers by something like 2%. there are a lot of cell-only people out there. and they are almost entirely progressive.

[Maurepas]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

So the argument is old Republicans are complete fucking crackpots? Hurray, Republican voters are majority crackpots! Old people are the most likely to actually vote.

That and the fact that the plurality (if not majority) of Americans are independents, most don't answer those polls, and it would seem that this poll catered to the crazy faction.

That there is an "independent" faction of Americans is an illusion created by the two parties. The majority of Americans are not independent because if they were, then they could overcome even the heavily tilted two-party system. Which rarely happens, even at local levels.

Nah there are real Independents, but, thats the thing they are independent they dont unite behind anything, and most of them know that fact, so they end up having to go one way or the other out of necessity, because no Third Party can garner all, or even most, of their support...

[Chrobalta]

I'm a strong conservative (albeit not an authoritarian one) and I'm rational.

I think the results are skewed thanks to the polling method of using landlines.

Why? Because only liars, crazy people, and crazy liars use landlines?

I realize you mean that they didn't get the younger Republicans who use cellphones and who we can only hope are both sane and willing to speak the truth. But the Republican Party is still dominated by its older members who set the tone of the party's platform, so I'm afraid including the younger ones would not change the fact that the rhetoric coming out of the party leadership echoes these scary poll results.

We already know they use something known as "AM Radio" to communicate. I think the core of the Republican party is probably landlines users as well. (assuming they upgraded their telegraphs),

[Vittos Ordination]

so, two questions:
1) how the hell did this happen? has it always been like this or is this new?
2) how do we go on? can the USian system survive when the base of one of the two parties is this unresponsive to consensus reality.

It is the result of talking points on the parts of politicians and pundits. Nuance just doesn't fly in modern US culture. It really came back to bite the republicans, though, as they have proven themselves unable to discuss issues with Obama without looking like buffoons. They must pay homage to the Obama that they have created in the eyes of their base, while trying to argue with someone who is nothing like that.

This isn't at all one sided though. Democrats were scared shitless of the nazi, torturing, satan-in-human-form, that was GWB, and now Obama is pretty much following through with all of the warmongering, detainee torturing/holding without charge, civil liberty stomping, and just-plain-evil policies that his predecessor was demonized for, and he is winning nobel prizes while doing it.

[South Lorenya]

There are few good political parties in the world. The Republicans are one of them.

SACRILEGE!!!

...seriously, though, that point is highly debatable.