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Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

Pro-Choice
1110
64%
Pro-Life
638
36%
 
Total votes : 1748

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54e
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:05 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
54e wrote:There's no slippery slope; it seems to me that your blanket assessment of women/humanity is somewhat foolish. I see no reason your argument can't be applied to other issues.


when women actually start having needless late term abortions we can discuss it. until then it is a bit sick to imagine that there are bunches of women who wake up one day and decide to kill their baby for kicks.

that attitude is DANGEROUS for actual women because it makes late term abortions unavailable in emergency situations.

I'm not sure you clicked on the link. Here it is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

I need to make sure that you understand that there are over a thousand "needless late term abortions" per year.

Can we talk about it now?

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:08 pm

54e wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:
when women actually start having needless late term abortions we can discuss it. until then it is a bit sick to imagine that there are bunches of women who wake up one day and decide to kill their baby for kicks.

that attitude is DANGEROUS for actual women because it makes late term abortions unavailable in emergency situations.

I'm not sure you clicked on the link. Here it is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

I need to make sure that you understand that there are over a thousand "needless late term abortions" per year.

Can we talk about it now?

I'm not sure you read your source.
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation <== Justifiable Reason
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion <== Justifiable Reason
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents <== Justifiable Reason
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant <== Unclear, but still a Justifiable Reason
6% Woman didn't know timing is important <== Justifiable Reason
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy <== I don't think I have to explain this one.
11% Other
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54e
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:09 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
54e wrote:Again I will bring up this link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

There's a section that gives the justifications for late termination. Complications don't seem to be the "primary reason" for late term abortions (or any abortions, for that matter).

Re-read that, as it includes third trimester pre-viability. It is not only about post-viability fetuses. And considering that if 1.5% of abortions happen between weeks 21-birth, and only 0.08% are past 24 weeks, that means that data is only applicable to the 1.42% that happen 21-23 weeks LMP and has nothing at all to do with the other 0.08%. In fact, only 9 states(last I checked) permit abortions past viability so it stands to reason that for the vast majority of women, once you reach 24 weeks, you're giving birth unless you have the funds to travel, which, if you'll look at your own source, at least half of women having abortions past 16 weeks LMP found it difficult or nearly impossible to find the funds necessary to have the abortion itself, let alone to travel to another state.

I would be glad to admit my mistake, but I don't see it. This is what I've been referencing:

In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[15]


Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this information. Also, for reference, here's the Wikipedia thing on viability with a handy chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

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54e
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:12 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
54e wrote:I'm not sure you clicked on the link. Here it is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

I need to make sure that you understand that there are over a thousand "needless late term abortions" per year.

Can we talk about it now?

I'm not sure you read your source.
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation <== Justifiable Reason
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion <== Justifiable Reason
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents <== Justifiable Reason
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant <== Unclear, but still a Justifiable Reason
6% Woman didn't know timing is important <== Justifiable Reason
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy <== I don't think I have to explain this one.
11% Other

I read it, and I see what you're saying, but I don't think this post is at all relevant to my point.

Edit - also, I don't know what you mean by justifiable, because I'm not sure a lot of these reasons would justify terminating a fetus that could survive out of the womb.
Last edited by 54e on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:15 pm

54e wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:
when women actually start having needless late term abortions we can discuss it. until then it is a bit sick to imagine that there are bunches of women who wake up one day and decide to kill their baby for kicks.

that attitude is DANGEROUS for actual women because it makes late term abortions unavailable in emergency situations.

I'm not sure you clicked on the link. Here it is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

I need to make sure that you understand that there are over a thousand "needless late term abortions" per year.

Can we talk about it now?


give me an actual case of an actual needless late term abortion.
whatever

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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:16 pm

54e wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:I'm not sure you read your source.
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation <== Justifiable Reason
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion <== Justifiable Reason
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents <== Justifiable Reason
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant <== Unclear, but still a Justifiable Reason
6% Woman didn't know timing is important <== Justifiable Reason
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion <== VERY Justifiable Reason
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy <== I don't think I have to explain this one.
11% Other

I read it, and I see what you're saying, but I don't think this post is at all relevant to my point.

Most of those 1000+ "needless" abortions aren't needless. That's how it is relevant to your point.
Also, this data includes surveys of women 16 weeks or more into pregnancy. 16 weeks is before viability.
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grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Kiu Ghesik wrote:harris' interpretation of bidenism and subsequent establishment of a bidenist vanguard party to root out malarkey and revisionist elements in society was revisionist in and of itself and should never have been implemented.

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54e
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Posts: 520
Founded: Jul 27, 2014
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:16 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
54e wrote:I'm not sure you clicked on the link. Here it is again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term ... _pregnancy

I need to make sure that you understand that there are over a thousand "needless late term abortions" per year.

Can we talk about it now?


give me an actual case of an actual needless late term abortion.

I'd be glad to engage in a conversation with you, but you're not holding up your end. Thanks but no thanks.

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Wallenburg
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:18 pm

54e wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:
give me an actual case of an actual needless late term abortion.

I'd be glad to engage in a conversation with you, but you're not holding up your end. Thanks but no thanks.

How isn't he/she?
I want to improve.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Kiu Ghesik wrote:harris' interpretation of bidenism and subsequent establishment of a bidenist vanguard party to root out malarkey and revisionist elements in society was revisionist in and of itself and should never have been implemented.

King of Snark, Minister of World Assembly Affairs, Arbiter for The East Pacific

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54e
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:19 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
54e wrote:I read it, and I see what you're saying, but I don't think this post is at all relevant to my point.

Most of those 1000+ "needless" abortions aren't needless. That's how it is relevant to your point.
Also, this data includes surveys of women 16 weeks or more into pregnancy. 16 weeks is before viability.

I addressed this in my edit, which you may not have seen: "I don't know what you mean by justifiable, because I'm not sure a lot of these reasons would justify terminating a fetus that could survive out of the womb."

I'll stand by that. Even assuming "most" aren't needless, that still leaves some needless. And either way, I'm not arguing about the numbers, I'm arguing about the rhetoric.
Last edited by 54e on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:19 pm

54e wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Re-read that, as it includes third trimester pre-viability. It is not only about post-viability fetuses. And considering that if 1.5% of abortions happen between weeks 21-birth, and only 0.08% are past 24 weeks, that means that data is only applicable to the 1.42% that happen 21-23 weeks LMP and has nothing at all to do with the other 0.08%. In fact, only 9 states(last I checked) permit abortions past viability so it stands to reason that for the vast majority of women, once you reach 24 weeks, you're giving birth unless you have the funds to travel, which, if you'll look at your own source, at least half of women having abortions past 16 weeks LMP found it difficult or nearly impossible to find the funds necessary to have the abortion itself, let alone to travel to another state.

I would be glad to admit my mistake, but I don't see it. This is what I've been referencing:

In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[15]


Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this information. Also, for reference, here's the Wikipedia thing on viability with a handy chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

You are very much misunderstanding this information.

If 4.2 percent of abortions occur AFTER 16 weeks but BEFORE 21 weeks...
And 1.4% of abortions occur AT or AFTER 21 weeks...
And 0.08% of abortions occur AFTER 24 weeks (viability)...
Only 1.4% of ALL abortions occurring past 16 weeks occur past 24 weeks.

The data that you have linked to that say "71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
[...]
11% Other"
Describes reasons for abortions from 16 weeks until birth.
Which means that 98.6% of the women surveyed did not have an abortion past viability.

Do you know what that means?
Those statistics are inherently worthless when discussing the reasons of the women who have had abortions past viability.
Last edited by Stagnant Axon Terminal on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

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54e
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:23 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
54e wrote:I'd be glad to engage in a conversation with you, but you're not holding up your end. Thanks but no thanks.

How isn't he/she?

Ashmoria wrote:
give me an actual case of an actual needless late term abortion.

This is kinda lazy, especially when you (Wallenburg) just gave me several hundred cases of needless abortions with your examination of my source.

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54e
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:28 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
54e wrote:I would be glad to admit my mistake, but I don't see it. This is what I've been referencing:



Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this information. Also, for reference, here's the Wikipedia thing on viability with a handy chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

You are very much misunderstanding this information.

If 4.2 percent of abortions occur AFTER 16 weeks but BEFORE 21 weeks...
And 1.4% of abortions occur AT or AFTER 21 weeks...
And 0.08% of abortions occur AFTER 24 weeks (viability)...
Only 1.4% of ALL abortions occurring past 16 weeks occur past 24 weeks.

The data that you have linked to that say "71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
[...]
11% Other"
Describes reasons for abortions from 16 weeks until birth.
Which means that 98.6% of the women surveyed did not have an abortion past viability.

Do you know what that means?
Those statistics are inherently worthless when discussing the reasons of the women who have had abortions past viability.

Okay. Here's another source that says largely the same thing as the other one.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:33 pm

54e wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:You are very much misunderstanding this information.

If 4.2 percent of abortions occur AFTER 16 weeks but BEFORE 21 weeks...
And 1.4% of abortions occur AT or AFTER 21 weeks...
And 0.08% of abortions occur AFTER 24 weeks (viability)...
Only 1.4% of ALL abortions occurring past 16 weeks occur past 24 weeks.

The data that you have linked to that say "71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
[...]
11% Other"
Describes reasons for abortions from 16 weeks until birth.
Which means that 98.6% of the women surveyed did not have an abortion past viability.

Do you know what that means?
Those statistics are inherently worthless when discussing the reasons of the women who have had abortions past viability.

Okay. Here's another source that says largely the same thing as the other one.

Which has the same flaw as the wiki page. You cannot compare the reasons for 98.6% of women having abortions between the weeks 16lmp to 23lmp with the reasons of the 1.4% having abortions at or after 24lmp. The study is statistically, mathematically, scientifically not qualified to discuss the reasons for those woman specifically having an abortion after 24 weeks which is your issue.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

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The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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54e
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:37 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
54e wrote:Okay. Here's another source that says largely the same thing as the other one.

Which has the same flaw as the wiki page. You cannot compare the reasons for 98.6% of women having abortions between the weeks 16lmp to 23lmp with the reasons of the 1.4% having abortions at or after 24lmp. The study is statistically, mathematically, scientifically not qualified to discuss the reasons for those woman specifically having an abortion after 24 weeks which is your issue.

Sure, but I don't think you're going to find any kind of information that reveals that the cause of all late term abortions is fetal complications or risk of the mother's health. That's my point.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:42 pm

54e wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Which has the same flaw as the wiki page. You cannot compare the reasons for 98.6% of women having abortions between the weeks 16lmp to 23lmp with the reasons of the 1.4% having abortions at or after 24lmp. The study is statistically, mathematically, scientifically not qualified to discuss the reasons for those woman specifically having an abortion after 24 weeks which is your issue.

Sure, but I don't think you're going to find any kind of information that reveals that the cause of all late term abortions is fetal complications or risk of the mother's health. That's my point.

And you won't be able to find anything about women having post-viability abortions for anything but justifiable reasons.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Hastiaka
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Postby Hastiaka » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:47 pm

Abortion is Murder. What would YOU do if you were the baby? What would be your reaction if you discovered your own mother wants to kill you. This is disappointing. A perversion of all laws possible, this generation is fucked.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:51 pm

Hastiaka wrote:Abortion is Murder. What would YOU do if you were the baby? What would be your reaction if you discovered your own mother wants to kill you. This is disappointing. A perversion of all laws possible, this generation is fucked.

If I were the z/e/f, I wouldn't have an opinion on it. Because z/e/fs can't think.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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54e
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:52 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
54e wrote:Sure, but I don't think you're going to find any kind of information that reveals that the cause of all late term abortions is fetal complications or risk of the mother's health. That's my point.

And you won't be able to find anything about women having post-viability abortions for anything but justifiable reasons.

Well, that's what I'm arguing. I'm not convinced that the reasons that are presented in these studies "justify" terminating a viable fetus. I'm not convinced these justifications qualify the mother's rights as more important than the fetus', or at least insofar as they result in the unnatural death of the viable fetus.

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Mefpan
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Postby Mefpan » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:54 pm

Hastiaka wrote:Abortion is Murder. What would YOU do if you were the baby? What would be your reaction if you discovered your own mother wants to kill you. This is disappointing. A perversion of all laws possible, this generation is fucked.

Oh, oh! An appeal to my emotion and will to live...!

Wait, I'd have no problem if my mother wanted to kill me before birth, because I'd at that point be a fucking parasite that has the right to exist in her body only through her consent alone. She takes the consent away, I go away.

Phew, that was easy.
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Hastiaka
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Postby Hastiaka » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:54 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Hastiaka wrote:Abortion is Murder. What would YOU do if you were the baby? What would be your reaction if you discovered your own mother wants to kill you. This is disappointing. A perversion of all laws possible, this generation is fucked.

If I were the z/e/f, I wouldn't have an opinion on it. Because z/e/fs can't think.


What if you can think? What would you do if you discovered your mother tried to kill you when you were in her? What's next? Making murder legal? -_-

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:55 pm

54e wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:And you won't be able to find anything about women having post-viability abortions for anything but justifiable reasons.

Well, that's what I'm arguing. I'm not convinced that the reasons that are presented in these studies "justify" terminating a viable fetus. I'm not convinced these justifications qualify the mother's rights as more important than the fetus', or at least insofar as they result in the unnatural death of the viable fetus.

So you believe that as soon as a woman crosses some arbitrary line, her rights matter less than the rights of the fetus violating her rights.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:58 pm

Hastiaka wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:If I were the z/e/f, I wouldn't have an opinion on it. Because z/e/fs can't think.


What if you can think? What would you do if you discovered your mother tried to kill you when you were in her? What's next? Making murder legal? -_-

Oh, my mother very heavily considered abortion. That was her right. It honestly would have been in her best interest to have an abortion, so that she could have attended college instead of getting a job at 17 to care for me. And after my birth, she did have an abortion, one we are both grateful for because she was not financially or emotionally stable and continuing the pregnancy would have negatively affected both of us.
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My sworn enemy is the Toyota 4Runner
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Redsection
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Postby Redsection » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:01 pm

I think abortions should be banned unless used for cases of rape,incest,or harm to the mother,why do i think they should be banned,well it's obvious without a larger population there are less people to fill the workforce,the millitary,and the police force.
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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Redsection wrote:I think abortions should be banned unless used for cases of rape,incest,or harm to the mother,why do i think they should be banned,well it's obvious without a larger population there are less people to fill the workforce,the millitary,and the police force.

The population of the earth is growing exponentially, regardless of abortion.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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54e
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Postby 54e » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
54e wrote:Well, that's what I'm arguing. I'm not convinced that the reasons that are presented in these studies "justify" terminating a viable fetus. I'm not convinced these justifications qualify the mother's rights as more important than the fetus', or at least insofar as they result in the unnatural death of the viable fetus.

So you believe that as soon as a woman crosses some arbitrary line, her rights matter less than the rights of the fetus violating her rights.

My views on abortion (and most things) are fluid and are certainly nowhere close to completely formed. That said, it does seem to me that a viable fetus does carry certain rights that supersede its mother's poorly-defined and poorly-supported right to have an abortion to some extent, at that time. Other than that, I'd probably consider myself pretty solidly "pro-choice."
Last edited by 54e on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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