New Zealand to change name to ALL BLACKS

[Stormaen]

The final design should include both a kiwi and a sheep.

Ah! The legendary shiwi!

[Forsher]

I actually gave justification for change later in the post,

"you really have to show that it isn't okay first. Okay, cool, you attempt to do this"

change away from what the current New Zealand flag represents which is where New Zealand came from to a flag of the ideals of New Zealand currently. People do want it now but if there was a proper public debate about it rather than mudslinging in the press could that be changed?

What mudslinging? If you want to characterise the flag debate as it appears in the media? Well... you got, at first, a few half-hearted articles about whether it should happen and then pretty much everything since then has been "Well, this design, me/he/she/they like/don't like".

Informed debate is the corner stone of democracy and there should be one before the referendum.

The cornerstone of democracy is that people who are subject to governance should have some say in that governance. The cornerstone of representative democracy is that MPs or equivalents represent the ideological make-up of a country and apply those ideologies to circumstances. Identity is, in some sense, an ideology in that it's a mode of thought.

Flag Change has been a top down approach. It wasn't democratic in its origins and, if you ask me, this is why it hasn't been democratic in its course. This is democrackcy.

Also it can entirely be up to a government to initiate change it doesn't need to be a grass roots movement it's not paternalistic to do so the whole idea of a referendum is expressly anti-patenalistic, if there was low turnout yet the government still went ahead with the idea then that would be paternalistic.

Flag Change has been a top down approach. It wasn't democratic in its origins and, if you ask me, this is why it hasn't been democratic in its course. This is democrackcy.

(And, by the way, a lot of people use referenda to generate after the fact support.)

Hahahahaha are you actually trying to imply that I'm a big old racist?

No, I am suggesting that you didn't stop to think through what your ideas would actually mean and if they are even applicable in the first place.

Plurinationalism does not mean what you think it means, and can exist alongside multiculturalism it means that there is respect for maori customs and culture alongside colonist descendants. A British example would be the fact that people can be Scottish and British or both. Or Welsh or British or both. The Welsh one is particularly relevant because but along side the countries other large minority groups they only have a small population advantage however Welsh is a language that's used on road signs and has been supported through the school system because they are a nation, just like the Maori are.

This is your mistake. The situation in the UK is completely different. Maori or "British Descendants" are not equivalent to the English, Scottish, Welsh or (Northern) Irish. The idea of Maoridom is a post-colonial and ahistorical concept (Kingitanga, which we could argue is an ancestor of this idea, for instance, was formed as a response to the theoretically illegal, and definitely unethical, activities of the colonial process... but was rejected by many hapu for infringing their mana). Even today it gets trotted out every so often but on forms and documentation, Maori are generally asked to specify their iwi (which, iirc, are named after the ancestral waka in which the groups first arrived). Indeed, there was recently an iwi-spat over Auckland.

Maori isn't equivalent to British either.

New Zealand, though, is equivalent to, simultaneously, English, Welsh, Scottish, (Northern) Irish and British all at once. Within this national identity there are many ethnic ones... such as Maori.

So, again, I really would have followed my advice and looked up the demographics section of the Wikipedia article.

When I said "I have no idea if this represents the reality of New Zealand today" I meant I don't know how inclusive Maori and settler descendant society is, you'll forgive me for not being a New Zealand expert there are a lot of states in the world with different kinds of relations with their aboriginal peoples.

Obviously. And if I wanted to comment on the Cornish or Welsh in a serious manner I'd check to see if that was actually a valid comparison to make, beforehand. It's like how it's probably a good idea to know where Iran is before you start talking about its relationship to the USA. Or knowing where exactly the piece of land you're going to be putting a foundation in, is.

which is all fine and good but the flag as it is right now seems to represent the heritage of one group it was chosen by that one group. if you want it to be everyone inclusive and not just colonist descendant or Maori then thats fine, admirable even but I think there are better flags for that then. The state has been built up and changed vastly over time so I think the flag should represent this. However I do agree with you that the way the referendum is being staged is fucked up and non of the 4 flags seem to do what you want so I can completely understand sticking with the same flag from your perspective.

No, I don't think you do.

As I said to someone else, that this has been New Zealand's flag for a century and that if we gave any design (even if, for sake of argument, it was a random QR code) a century of being New Zealand's flag would have been New Zealand's flag for a century is actually the point.

How many people do you know who stop to decompose the Union Jack into its components?

I've decided I'm a fan of the red peak flag.
http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com

Upset it didn't make it to the referendum shortlist. None of the four excite me much.

Whilst I support retaining the current flag, you make a good point here.

That flag is a good flag. It's simplistic, transcendental and has meaning. However, the committee choosing the finalists didn't give a shit for anything like that; they cared for a logo. All they were looking for was something that would look good on a t-shirt. Hence why we have three takes on the same design in the final four.

I'd rather see the red peak flag included at the expense of one of those awful silver fern designs.

Just for a laugh we should do the whole 50,000 signature petition thing and get a nice non-binding referendum that asks, "Should Red Peak have been one of the flag alternatives that we decided not to adopt?"

The Governor General has said he will not assent to a flag change that lacks the Union Jack.

This would be very big news. I have not seen it. Therefore, this did not happen.

Besides, constitutionally, this would be very dodgy... in my non-expert opinion, the GG would have to have a very strong swell of support to do anything (and, honestly, his options are pretty restricted... dissolve* parliament probably).

*By the way, if you ever hear anyone saying that New Zealand's head of state isn't independent, point this power of the GG out because, hey, the Queen as the Queen of the UK cannot dissolve the British parliament.

Whatever doesn't have the banner of a genocidal colonial empire on its upper left corner.

Problem: it's still going to be the banner of a genocidal colonial empire. What NZ did in the past cannot be erased. Weren't expecting that, were you?

Next time, come back with a decent argument.

[Victoriala]

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/20157
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... esign/1165
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/27721
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/32079

I like these better. More ethnic and symbolic.

[Forsher]

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/20157
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... esign/1165
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/27721
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/32079

I like these better. More ethnic and symbolic.

"Ethnic" reminded me immediately of Gauguin.

Also, while strictly speaking I believe the importance of red is tied to the specific practices of the iwi which had the greatest influence on the carving school that is largely responsible for resurrecting the art, blue doesn't really have any real connection with Maoridom and, in that shade, with New Zealand either (we're more Chelsea than Manchester City). Also, it should never have been in that so called "long list" because it's just a colour variation of "hyponoflag" (which will get my vote, incidentally).

Also, if any mods read this, has the poll been distorted by puppets because the two leading options had been trading blows whereas now there's a clear lead (42% vs 33%)?

[The Blaatschapen]

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/20157
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... esign/1165
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/27721
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-wit ... sign/32079

I like these better. More ethnic and symbolic.

"Ethnic" reminded me immediately of Gauguin.

Also, while strictly speaking I believe the importance of red is tied to the specific practices of the iwi which had the greatest influence on the carving school that is largely responsible for resurrecting the art, blue doesn't really have any real connection with Maoridom and, in that shade, with New Zealand either (we're more Chelsea than Manchester City). Also, it should never have been in that so called "long list" because it's just a colour variation of "hyponoflag" (which will get my vote, incidentally).

It makes sense that blue does not have any real connection with Maoridom. Blue comes relatively late as a colour in general: http://uk.businessinsider.com/what-is-b ... lor-2015-2 Not sure if the maori distinguished blue as a seperate colour (especially before the arrival of the Europeans).

[Atlanticatia]

-snip-

I believe the blue is meant to represent water - which is ever so plentiful in NZ.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zea ... oll-q09308
Two-thirds now oppose the flag change, up 2 percent from 18 months ago.

[Esceen]

John Key is the second worse PM on the planet (second to the one and only corporate sellout Tony Abbott). Key's first flag suggestion was universally panned for looking like the ISIS flag and his second suggestion is universally panned for looking like trash.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Are things so nice in NZ that the government have decided this is a pressing domestic policy issue?

[Forsher]

Are things so nice in NZ that the government have decided this is a pressing domestic policy issue?

It's our Malvinas.

Although, really, it was originally more a case of distracting from an absence of any other ideas than anything else... because people are/were happily convinced that National's managed to achieve things (even if this isn't really true) but people still expect continued ideas.

Hasn't worked out the way that Key probably intended it too either. For a while in the last fortnight he was dealing with the controversial flag change topic (ugly alternatives and we don't need to change double whammy) and being largely out of tune re: refugees as well.

[Victoriala]

John Key is the second worse PM on the planet (second to the one and only corporate sellout Tony Abbott). Key's first flag suggestion was universally panned for looking like the ISIS flag and his second suggestion is universally panned for looking like trash.

eh

the four other fleeg proposals are shit as well

[Nazis in Space]

To be entirely fair, the current NZ flag does look terrible, and the first/second of the proposed flags actually look pretty damn good.