NATION

PASSWORD

Leftists have, can, and should oppose Islam

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Neo Telangana
Envoy
 
Posts: 275
Founded: May 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Leftists have, can, and should oppose Islam

Postby Neo Telangana » Wed May 20, 2015 5:58 pm

I consider myself a leftist (broadly speaking), and it irritates me immensely when I see people say things along the lines of "leftists/multiculturalists/cultural Marxists (whatever the hell that means) are supporting Muslims and Islam". Do people not know the history of the left-wing and its admirable struggle against organized religion across the globe?

  • The original leftists, the French revolutionaries, were immensely anti-clerical and opposed to the Catholic Church. They carried out one of the world's first modern de-Christianization campaigns.
  • The leftist regime of Plutarcho Elias Calles led a great pro-secular, anti-clerical campaign against the Catholic Church in Mexico.
  • The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.
  • The Bolsheviks stomped Islam out of public life in Central Asia, and gave unprecedented rights and freedom to Central Asian women.
  • The Soviets fought to support the socialist government in Afghanistan and uphold civilization and progress against the uncivilized and backwards Islamists. After the Soviets withdrew and the Taliban established their dominance by the mid-90s, Afghanistan was plunged into a regressive, barbaric, quasi-medieval state of hellish proportions.
  • In my own country of Telangana, Communists organized a great peasant rebellion in the 1940s against oppressive landlords and the Islamic state of Hyderabad.


This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?
My nation reflects my actual political views, and it has absolutely nothing to do with steampunk.

Pro: Secularism, Atheism, Socialism, Progressivism, Rationalism, Separation of Powers, Industrialization, Nationalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Equality

Con: Theocracy, Religion, Laissez-faire Capitalism, Traditionalism, Dogma, Autocracy, Pre-Modern Romanticism, Multiculturalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Discrimination

I use red to indicate what I LIKE, and green to indicate what I DON'T LIKE. Screw your traditional color roles.

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:00 pm

The "struggles" of the left-wing around the globe "against" religion have been considerably less than admirable.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Wed May 20, 2015 6:01 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:I consider myself a leftist (broadly speaking), and it irritates me immensely when I see people say things along the lines of "leftists/multiculturalists/cultural Marxists (whatever the hell that means) are supporting Muslims and Islam". Do people not know the history of the left-wing and its admirable struggle against organized religion across the globe?

  • The original leftists, the French revolutionaries, were immensely anti-clerical and opposed to the Catholic Church. They carried out one of the world's first modern de-Christianization campaigns.
  • The leftist regime of Plutarcho Elias Calles led a great pro-secular, anti-clerical campaign against the Catholic Church in Mexico.
  • The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.
  • The Bolsheviks stomped Islam out of public life in Central Asia, and gave unprecedented rights and freedom to Central Asian women.
  • The Soviets fought to support the socialist government in Afghanistan and uphold civilization and progress against the uncivilized and backwards Islamists. After the Soviets withdrew and the Taliban established their dominance by the mid-90s, Afghanistan was plunged into a regressive, barbaric, quasi-medieval state of hellish proportions.
  • In my own country of Telangana, Communists organized a great peasant rebellion in the 1940s against oppressive landlords and the Islamic state of Hyderabad.


This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?


Leftists have fought against institutionalized religion that contributes to or supports reckless barbarism in the name of religion.

Which modern Islam does not. Rather it is those who oppose Islam in general for a few fringe people who are inherently evil who have identified as Islam define their view on the entire religion and those who believe in it.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Wed May 20, 2015 6:05 pm

I'm totally opposed to all organized religion. I believe the Abrahamic religions have been the worst and most violent throughout history. I also believe Islam, for some reason, got stuck/went back to the Dark Ages (wait, weren't Muslims actually really advancing at that point) at some point and that it is totally unacceptable for them to take their belief system so literally.

The Jews stopped. The Christians stopped. They generally aren't running countries that behead and stone people. Islam, it's your turn.

*acknowledges 'not all muslims' whatever ok*
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


User avatar
Neo Telangana
Envoy
 
Posts: 275
Founded: May 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Telangana » Wed May 20, 2015 6:06 pm

Nierra wrote:Leftists have fought against institutionalized religion that contributes to or supports reckless barbarism in the name of religion.

Which modern Islam does not. Rather it is those who oppose Islam in general for a few fringe people who are inherently evil who have identified as Islam define their view on the entire religion and those who believe in it.


Modern Islam does not contribute to or support reckless barbarism in the name of religion? Have you ever taken a good look at Saudi Arabia? It is one of the few countries in the world that is still right-wing in the original, 18th century sense.
My nation reflects my actual political views, and it has absolutely nothing to do with steampunk.

Pro: Secularism, Atheism, Socialism, Progressivism, Rationalism, Separation of Powers, Industrialization, Nationalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Equality

Con: Theocracy, Religion, Laissez-faire Capitalism, Traditionalism, Dogma, Autocracy, Pre-Modern Romanticism, Multiculturalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Discrimination

I use red to indicate what I LIKE, and green to indicate what I DON'T LIKE. Screw your traditional color roles.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Wed May 20, 2015 6:16 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:
Nierra wrote:Leftists have fought against institutionalized religion that contributes to or supports reckless barbarism in the name of religion.

Which modern Islam does not. Rather it is those who oppose Islam in general for a few fringe people who are inherently evil who have identified as Islam define their view on the entire religion and those who believe in it.


Modern Islam does not contribute to or support reckless barbarism in the name of religion? Have you ever taken a good look at Saudi Arabia? It is one of the few countries in the world that is still right-wing in the original, 18th century sense.


So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Romalae
Minister
 
Posts: 3199
Founded: May 31, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Romalae » Wed May 20, 2015 6:18 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.

Yes, and what else did they famously do?

...start a YouTube channel, of course

This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?

Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.
Economic Left/Right: -3.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79

Location: Central Texas
Ideology: somewhere between left-leaning centrism and social democracy
Other: irreligious, white, male

User avatar
Nerotysia
Minister
 
Posts: 2146
Founded: Jul 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nerotysia » Wed May 20, 2015 6:21 pm

Nierra wrote:
Neo Telangana wrote:
Modern Islam does not contribute to or support reckless barbarism in the name of religion? Have you ever taken a good look at Saudi Arabia? It is one of the few countries in the world that is still right-wing in the original, 18th century sense.


So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?

Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?

User avatar
Purger
Envoy
 
Posts: 324
Founded: May 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Purger » Wed May 20, 2015 6:25 pm

Kemal pasha was not a left-winger. His movement was nationalistic.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Wed May 20, 2015 6:25 pm

Nerotysia wrote:
Nierra wrote:
So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?

Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?


I can read an article on feminism and then commit crimes in the name of social equality. Is feminism to blame, or am I to blame?
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19376
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Wed May 20, 2015 6:27 pm

Merizoc wrote:The "struggles" of the left-wing around the globe "against" religion have been considerably less than admirable.


depends on when and where really
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
T <---- THE INFAMOUS T

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:28 pm

Romalae wrote:
Neo Telangana wrote:The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.

Yes, and what else did they famously do?

...start a YouTube channel, of course

This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?

Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.

Those guys aren't really left. Progressive, maybe.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
Aethrys
Minister
 
Posts: 2714
Founded: Apr 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Aethrys » Wed May 20, 2015 6:30 pm

Nierra wrote:
Nerotysia wrote:Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?


I can read an article on feminism and then commit crimes in the name of social equality. Is feminism to blame, or am I to blame?


Depends on if you were radicalized by feminist ideology into committing such crimes. In which case it would be you AND feminism at fault. Otherwise, just you.
"Concentration of power in a political machine is bad; and an Established Church is only a political machine; it was invented for that; it is nursed, cradled, preserved for that; it is an enemy to human liberty, and does no good which it could not better do in a split-up and scattered condition." - Mark Twain

User avatar
Nerotysia
Minister
 
Posts: 2146
Founded: Jul 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nerotysia » Wed May 20, 2015 6:32 pm

Nierra wrote:
Nerotysia wrote:Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?


I can read an article on feminism and then commit crimes in the name of social equality. Is feminism to blame, or am I to blame?

That's hardly the same thing as an institution committing crimes, or an entire society doing so. Institutions are inherently different entities than individuals. I would argue that religion is not the root cause of violence, it is merely violent human nature using religion as an excuse to express itself. That does not mean that the excuse itself can't be criticized as well though.

However, if your crime was a hate crime, then one could argue the ideology was at least partially to blame.

Regardless that's all irrelevant. You seemed to be holding Islam and Christianity to different standards. That is blatant hypocrisy.

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:34 pm

Nerotysia wrote:
Nierra wrote:
So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?

Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?

There is no difference. What it comes down to, is that it isn't religion, it's people. People insert their own ideas into scripture, not the other way around. Look in the Koran or the Bible, and you'll find plenty of arguments for being a terrible misogynist, or for being a champion of women's rights. Parts advocating war and violence, and parts advocating tolerance and peace. People are going to use scripture to justify their actions, no matter what side of an argument they're on. Abolitionists and slave owners alike took passages from the Bible to defend their beliefs. So feel free to attack the awful practices committed by institutions, from beheadings in Saudi Arabia to hangings in Iran, but remember that it doesn't help anyone to attack the concept used to justify those actions.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:35 pm

Nerotysia wrote:
Nierra wrote:
I can read an article on feminism and then commit crimes in the name of social equality. Is feminism to blame, or am I to blame?

That's hardly the same thing as an institution committing crimes, or an entire society doing so. Institutions are inherently different entities than individuals. I would argue that religion is not the root cause of violence, it is merely violent human nature using religion as an excuse to express itself. That does not mean that the excuse itself can't be criticized as well though.

However, if your crime was a hate crime, then one could argue the ideology was at least partially to blame.

Regardless that's all irrelevant. You seemed to be holding Islam and Christianity to different standards. That is blatant hypocrisy.
No, he's not. You were the first one to bring up Christianity. Not him.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Wed May 20, 2015 6:37 pm

Nerotysia wrote:
Nierra wrote:
I can read an article on feminism and then commit crimes in the name of social equality. Is feminism to blame, or am I to blame?

That's hardly the same thing as an institution committing crimes, or an entire society doing so. Institutions are inherently different entities than individuals. I would argue that religion is not the root cause of violence, it is merely violent human nature using religion as an excuse to express itself. That does not mean that the excuse itself can't be criticized as well though.

However, if your crime was a hate crime, then one could argue the ideology was at least partially to blame.

Regardless that's all irrelevant. You seemed to be holding Islam and Christianity to different standards. That is blatant hypocrisy.


Umm, no I hold them both to the same standard. That is neither religion is to blame, and religion is in no way shape or form the cause of all violence in this world. This is a blatant lie, and an over exaggerated myth that's been bloated by the left for a very long time.

The majority of wars throughout history were fought on resources, or political tension. Not religion, religion has served as an excuse quite often but one could hardly equate that as a way religion is inherently evil.

All these things are effected by how people use them and they are neither implicitly good or bad in and of themselves.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-ala ... 00766.html
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Aethrys
Minister
 
Posts: 2714
Founded: Apr 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Aethrys » Wed May 20, 2015 6:37 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Nerotysia wrote:Are you implying that institutionalized Islam is free of blame, but institutionalized Christianity was so totally horrible and carries real blame? Islam has inspired institutions that do horrible things. Same with Christianity. Same with many other religions. What's the difference?

There is no difference. What it comes down to, is that it isn't religion, it's people. People insert their own ideas into scripture, not the other way around. Look in the Koran or the Bible, and you'll find plenty of arguments for being a terrible misogynist, or for being a champion of women's rights. Parts advocating war and violence, and parts advocating tolerance and peace. People are going to use scripture to justify their actions, no matter what side of an argument they're on. Abolitionists and slave owners alike took passages from the Bible to defend their beliefs. So feel free to attack the awful practices committed by institutions, from beheadings in Saudi Arabia to hangings in Iran, but remember that it doesn't help anyone to attack the concept used to justify those actions.


So, your argument is that being indoctrinated with a set of values and world view that is repeatedly drilled into an individual's mind from their formative years all the way into adulthood has no bearing on how they will develop? Otherwise, that makes for a very strong argument for attacking the institution that helped with their cultural programming, and would stand to benefit a great many people.
"Concentration of power in a political machine is bad; and an Established Church is only a political machine; it was invented for that; it is nursed, cradled, preserved for that; it is an enemy to human liberty, and does no good which it could not better do in a split-up and scattered condition." - Mark Twain

User avatar
Dejanic
Senator
 
Posts: 4677
Founded: Nov 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dejanic » Wed May 20, 2015 6:37 pm

Romalae wrote:
Neo Telangana wrote:The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.

Yes, and what else did they famously do?

...start a YouTube channel, of course

This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?

Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.

Ahem, Sam Harris is a Conservative and a Neo Con, he isn't a "vocal left winger", Bill Maher is vocal, I'll give you that, but he's hardly a leftist, even centrist Obama fanboy types view him as right leaning, and other New Atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, were/are right leaning. I'd actually argue that New Atheism is actually quite incompatible with Leftism.

Anyway, I do criticize aspects of Islam, just like how I criticize aspects of all religions, but right wingers often have a habit of picking on Islam and on Muslims on a more racial/ethnic basis, which is thinly veiled under anti Islamic rhetoric, and that's certainly something that Leftists should oppose.
Last edited by Dejanic on Wed May 20, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44617
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Wed May 20, 2015 6:39 pm

We are too busy smoking pot and telling the press to write bad things about conservatives.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Neo Telangana
Envoy
 
Posts: 275
Founded: May 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Telangana » Wed May 20, 2015 6:39 pm

Nierra wrote:So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?


Why not? Its law code is based on the Quran, the central text of Islam. If you like, we can focus on many other countries like the Islamic Republic of Iran, Islamic Republic of Pakistan, and former Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to understand how modern Islam "contributes to or supports reckless barbarism in the name of religion". There seems to be no shortage of examples.



Romalae wrote:
This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?

Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.


Is Sam Harris really a leftist? I haven't read his works, so I don't know.

As for Bill Maher, he is an insufferable hypocrite and idiot. He loves Israel so much that he wants America to sacrifice its own lives and money for the sake of the Jews (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQR1d1ao_IM). He is also a scientifically illiterate conspiracy theorist who is anti-vaccine because he doesn't want the government to "inject disease into perfectly healthy human bodies" (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78). I feel ashamed as a leftist to be ideologically associated with a person like him.
Last edited by Neo Telangana on Wed May 20, 2015 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My nation reflects my actual political views, and it has absolutely nothing to do with steampunk.

Pro: Secularism, Atheism, Socialism, Progressivism, Rationalism, Separation of Powers, Industrialization, Nationalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Equality

Con: Theocracy, Religion, Laissez-faire Capitalism, Traditionalism, Dogma, Autocracy, Pre-Modern Romanticism, Multiculturalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Discrimination

I use red to indicate what I LIKE, and green to indicate what I DON'T LIKE. Screw your traditional color roles.

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:40 pm

Dejanic wrote:
Romalae wrote:Yes, and what else did they famously do?

...start a YouTube channel, of course


Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.

Ahem, Sam Harris is a Conservative and a Neo Con, he isn't a "vocal left winger", Bill Maher is vocal, I'll give you that, but he's hardly a leftist, even centrist Obama fanboy types view him as right leaning, and other New Atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, were/are right leaning. I'd actually argue that New Atheism is actually quite incompatible with Leftism.

Er, Harris has called himself a liberal, iirc, and Hitchens was a Marxist. Just pointing that out.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Wed May 20, 2015 6:40 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:
Nierra wrote:So Saudi Arabia's Government is a good reference point for understanding Islam?


Why not? Its law code is based on the Quran, the central text of Islam. If you like, we can focus on many other countries like the Islamic Republic of Iran, Islamic Republic of Pakistan, and former Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to understand how modern Islam "contributes to or supports reckless barbarism in the name of religion". There seems to be no shortage of examples.



Romalae wrote:
Well, there's some pretty vocal left-wingers like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and the rest of the New Atheists who hold this view of Islam.


Is Sam Harris really a leftist? I haven't read his works, so I don't know.

As for Bill Maher, he is an insufferable hypocrite and a source of shame to leftists. He loves Israel so much that he wants America to sacrifice its own lives and money for the sake of the Jews (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQR1d1ao_IM). He is also a scientifically illiterate conspiracy theorist who is anti-vaccine because he doesn't want the government to "inject disease into perfectly healthy human bodies (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78).


The difference being that "religious" Governments are routed in exerting power and political control rather than giving teachings of how to live your life the best way as good people have intended. So no, no Government is an adequate representation of any religion at all.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 20, 2015 6:41 pm

Nierra wrote:
Nerotysia wrote:That's hardly the same thing as an institution committing crimes, or an entire society doing so. Institutions are inherently different entities than individuals. I would argue that religion is not the root cause of violence, it is merely violent human nature using religion as an excuse to express itself. That does not mean that the excuse itself can't be criticized as well though.

However, if your crime was a hate crime, then one could argue the ideology was at least partially to blame.

Regardless that's all irrelevant. You seemed to be holding Islam and Christianity to different standards. That is blatant hypocrisy.


Umm, no I hold them both to the same standard. That is neither religion is to blame, and religion is in no way shape or form the cause of all violence in this world. This is a blatant lie, and an over exaggerated myth that's been bloated by the left for a very long time.

The majority of wars throughout history were fought on resources, or political tension. Not religion, religion has served as an excuse quite often but one could hardly equate that as a way religion is inherently evil.

All these things are effected by how people use them and they are neither implicitly good or bad in and of themselves.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-ala ... 00766.html

Hm, good read.
FUTBOL GANG
Somewhere to the left of Attila the Hun
Social Juchetice Warrior
More cool stuff

Pizzagate expert
Guinean Unionist

The NS Parliament—Christian People's Congress: Join us! For family and faith.

User avatar
Aethrys
Minister
 
Posts: 2714
Founded: Apr 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Aethrys » Wed May 20, 2015 6:42 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Dejanic wrote:Ahem, Sam Harris is a Conservative and a Neo Con, he isn't a "vocal left winger", Bill Maher is vocal, I'll give you that, but he's hardly a leftist, even centrist Obama fanboy types view him as right leaning, and other New Atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, were/are right leaning. I'd actually argue that New Atheism is actually quite incompatible with Leftism.

Er, Harris has called himself a liberal, iirc, and Hitchens was a Marxist. Just pointing that out.


I'm a space alien.
"Concentration of power in a political machine is bad; and an Established Church is only a political machine; it was invented for that; it is nursed, cradled, preserved for that; it is an enemy to human liberty, and does no good which it could not better do in a split-up and scattered condition." - Mark Twain

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Ocelot-, Alakazan, Andoros, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Berdland, Dazchan, Destructive Government Economic System, Feyrisshire, Gotland, Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum, Kilobugya, Kubra, New haven america, Shanghai industrial complex, Sougra, The Huskar Social Union, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads